Classes

Post by **King of Creation** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:15 pm

So I was thinking today about what made Fallout a great Role Playing Game. And aside from all the other obvious things, I thought this: No Classes. There were no "classes" per se, in Fallout. There was no "thief" class, or "fighter" class, with its predetermined attributes and stuff. We were free to mold and shape our character completely as we saw fit. I think this is something that seriously needs to continue in Fallout 3. If there are predetermined "classes" in Fallout 3, especially since it takes place in a wasteland world where anything resembling "classes" would have been taken out by the bombs, where people have to adapt to various methods in order to survive, I will be very disappointed.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:38 pm

There won't be. The only RPG system that actually uses classes is D&D. Of course, the devs might just get lazy and force you to use a boring premade character.

Post by **King of Creation** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:11 pm

Didn't all of the Elder Scrolls game require you to select a class?

Sovy Kurosei · Post by **Sovy Kurosei** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:25 pm

In Morrowind and Daggerfall, they had classes, but not like what you would find in AD&D. The classes basically gave you a list of skills to "tag", which will give you a boost to tagged skilled when you begin the game. Oh, and it is involved in leveling up, but that is a different thing entirely.

The real question is if Bethesda will keep the experience point system in the Fallout universe, or take after the Morrowind/Daggerfall model where you have to either get somebody to train you or smack some baddies around to "level" a skill up.

Experience points all the way!

EDIT: Additionally in Daggerfall/Morrowind, you can create your own class, forgot to mention that. I don't know if it can be done in Arena, have to quiz one of the devs about that.

Franz Schubert · Post by **Franz Schubert** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 8:58 am

The classes in the ES games are much less rigid than the classes in AD&D. You can make a spellcasting thief with rudimentary combat skills. He won't actually excell in any of them, but you can make a viable character like that. The Fallout character creation system is the same way, except much more free-form... hence, much better.

Blargh · Post by **Blargh** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:54 am

The problem with the ES class system (especially noticeable in Morrowind), was that the mentioned spellcaster thief with rudimentary combat skills could very quickly become highly proficient in all three areas, equally so if one wanted. As could any other character. In the end it felt entirely pointless, to become so powerful so quickly, and have none of the implied limitations of oneÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s chosen profession. It flew in the face of a so called 'class' system, and more importantly game balance, as I see it.

Suffice to say, I concur. Classes are not something Fallout 3 would benefit from in my opinion.

Franz Schubert · Post by **Franz Schubert** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 12:34 pm

Right, well I didn't say ESIII implemented it WELL, just that it had. This is kind of OT, but what do you guys think about the idea of having skills increase with use, vs. a strictly SP-driven system?

Wolfman Walt · Post by **Wolfman Walt** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 1:06 pm

I didn't like the ES' system to much mostly because as previousily mentioned. You got too good too fast doing abunch of pointless shit and this was actually encouraged. I remember reading one FAQ that told you to jump everywhere because at around lvl 20 Jumping it became faster to bunny hop everywhere then it was to run. Go with old fashioned experience points I say.

Sovy Kurosei · Post by **Sovy Kurosei** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:50 pm

Experience point system, all the way. While there is a certain logic to "practicing your skills to level them up" the outcome to implementing such a skill system means that players have to do a bunch of useless stuff in order to level up, instead of actually playing the game.

Blargh · Post by **Blargh** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 11:01 pm

I found it was possible in both Daggerfall and Morrowind to play through the game without undue frustration by not exploiting the mentioned 'jump up and down for three hours to level up' phenomena. Yes, with restraint it is possible to complete one's in-game goals without resorting to such mind-numbing, forth-wall breaking tripe. Unsurprisingly I found it more enjoyable to play with a non-godlike character, which made the overall experience more like impaling my eye on a door-knob, instead of eating powdered glass. The error is present, but with restraint can be avoided. Unfortunately this is not much of a solution.

To that, a counter-argument - I believe the skill point system Fallout 1/2 employed is superior with regard to game mechanics, if solely for the oversight of the prior mentioned skill development exploit. In it's current guise, the repetition=ability system is deeply flawed, and unless something can be done to make actual use rather than mindless, powergaming repetition count towards improvement, it should not be employed with Fallout 3.

First Force · Post by **First Force** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 11:32 pm

maybe like technician, grenadier, infantry, sniper or close quarter combat specialist wich each its own bonuses and traits and off course their own weaknesses. mmmm i think i would like it.
maybe that some classes couldnt use certain equipment or weapons, although then it would mean that you would need multiple teammates and that reminds me of tactics. then again i also recall jagged alliance 2, now this was a bloody good game.

this is quite hard, it all relies on how they finish the game, you know how it is with the commercialism, the quick buck and such....... it quite fucks up gaming experiences, crushed hopes an such.

i dunno if classing would be good in fallout, cant decide.

and about the skill point gaining flaw, i found out that ( as an example ultima online ) in some games that macroeing is undoable because of timeframes and you need to use multiple object instead of macroeing just on one object, place is also important. maybe they should use this concept more.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 11:55 pm

No class was part of Fallout's overall feeling of freedom, as well as the freedom of your acts.

requiem_for_a_starfury · Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:07 am

Rather than classes I'd prefer the option to choose a custom background (or not) sort of an extended more detailed version of the traits, kind of like in Arcanum or even System Shock 2.

Nicolai · Post by **Nicolai** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:10 am

How about a system that takes a bit from both lairs?
You get better at jumping by jumping around a lot, and you gain experience points by killing people or completing quests and stuff, that you can spend in various skills and stuff. or something

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 4:07 am

That'd be ideal, except there need to be some restrictions to the jump-jump exploit.

First Force · Post by **First Force** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:28 pm

are we talking about first person or top down? i though fallout 3 would be top down, i prefer to keep it top down with the old interface, thus not using jumping

Nicolai · Post by **Nicolai** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 7:11 pm

I used the first person-point of view as an example.

Cuthbert Allgood · Post by **Cuthbert Allgood** » Tue May 03, 2005 4:04 am

Instead of classes they could use titles that would give you small bonuses<not just npc reactions>, but still giving you the freedom to use any weapon and armour.

Post by **King of Creation** » Tue May 03, 2005 4:36 am

I still don't think it would work. Being hampered down by class labels or anything like that which effects your stats takes away from the overall game. You'll spend too much time trying to get good in your class, ignoring everthing else.

In Fallout, all you had were things like Savior of the Wastes, or Child Killer...titles that effected the way people percieved you, but didn't effect your stats or anything like that. It's just a freedom thing. Having no classes means you can really live your character.

Kahgan · Post by **Kahgan** » Tue May 03, 2005 11:36 am

Fallout with classes: