Swordfight Lameness in Movies

Blargh · Post by **Blargh** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:44 am

Subhuman wrote:The point of any swordfight is to kill the other person, as Franz said.

Not always. Like any scene, it is intended to further or strengthen narrative of a film, and so intention can vary. Not all conflict ends in death. The same could be said for a real fight in real life. Death is but one of many aims and ends.

Subhuman wrote:A director doesn't need to be familiar with the intricate workings of one-on-one combat /snip

I was not referring to any director. Though I would endorse that context too. If you wish to cite any personal experience you have had with directing such scenes in any sort of film, I will put your disagreement down to individual experience (or lack thereof.)

Subhuman wrote:\snip he just needs to have Person A try to slice Person B in half.

Purpose can vary, and does. To not understand a subject one wishes to utilise often leads to poor results (at best.) Given my personal experience, I maintain that an understanding of the medium will provide a greater insight into making such a scene both more interesting and enjoyable for the audience. The objective of a fight scene in a film is to further engage the audience, to provide an enjoyable experience and therefore generate profit. The only wincing a director should want to elicit would be from the power of the scene, not directorial clumsiness.

If one ignores the nuances of technique, and instead takes a 'bang them together and look angry' approach, the scene will hardly bolster a film worthy of praise. Instead it will likely only be detrimental. Knowledge coupled with experience is in most cases beneficial.

Subhuman wrote:It's very simple, and you needn't have personally fought with swords to direct a good swordfight scene.

Unsurprisingly, I am not convinced. We could agree to disagree, though I suspect you will not find that to your liking.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:04 pm

It all depends of what the fight scene's purpose is. Sometimes, it's just aesthetic. I don't give a shit if the scenes aren't realistic in Crouching Tiger or Sword in the Moon. That's not why I'm watching the movie.

On the other hand, historical movies like Braveheart and Gladiator need realistic/accurate fighting.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:23 pm

Blargh wrote:Not all conflict ends in death. The same could be said for a real fight in real life. Death is but one of many aims and ends.

That's very zen of you, but in a movie where two people are using swords with intent to kill, they should be aiming at the other person's body, not their sword. Franz was complaining that too many movies have characters simply slicing the air and looking fancy without behaving as if they're actually trying to kill the other person, and I agree. Even if it's something like Crouching Tiger or Kill Bill, where the fights are intentionally unrealistic, there still needs to be an element of realism to it.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:14 pm

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:39 pm

Blargh · Post by **Blargh** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:56 pm

Subhuman wrote:That's very zen of you,

Why thanks !

Subhuman wrote:but in a movie where two people are using swords with intent to kill, /snip

Let's compare this comment with :

Subhuman wrote:The point of any swordfight is to kill the other person, as Franz said.

Which is it ? Do those who fight with swords always intend to kill ? Dare ye speak for every and all films that contain bladework ?

Subhuman wrote:they should be aiming at the other person's body, not their sword.

Have I contested this point ? Even I would think it fairly logical to give priority to head/body strikes rather than the blade, (with the possible exception of a feint) that is assuming one wants the death of their opponent. I've always found a mildly crippling injury to be quite amusing.

Subhuman wrote:Franz was complaining that too many movies have characters simply slicing the air and looking fancy without behaving as if they're actually trying to kill the other person, and I agree.

Yes, I too agree. However, what exactly does this have to do with your apparent opposition to my comment regarding personal experience with and the relevance of sword work to potential directorial success ?

At the risk of stating the obvious - I suggested Franz consider fencing, kendo or similar in order to obtain a deeper understanding of the art. If anything, it would only accentuate the often dismal results we see in cinema.

If anything, your comment seems to suggest that with few exceptions, you believe sword fights in films are both lackluster and unsatisfying - on this I could not agree more (and I am now probably repeating myself, such is life.)

Subhuman wrote:Even if it's something like Crouching Tiger or Kill Bill, where the fights are intentionally unrealistic, there still needs to be an element of realism to it.

Hmm, am I alone in viewing this as a blatant contradiction of meaning ?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:36 pm

Blargh wrote:However, what exactly does this have to do with your apparent opposition to my comment regarding personal experience with and the relevance of sword work to potential directorial success?

You said that a director needs to be familiar with the intricate arts of swordfighting to make a good fight scene. I disagreed. That's a completely separate topic from the original, which was the lack of realism in fight scenes. Why are you even comparing the two points? It's a different tangent.

Blargh wrote:Hmm, am I alone in viewing this as a blatant contradiction of meaning ?

Perhaps I should have used "believability" instead of "realism", but my point remains: Even if a fight is over-the-top and would probably never happen in real life, it still needs to look like it could happen. Take Kill Bill for example: It's highly unlikely that Uma Thurman would have survived a full-on attack from 88 (or so) sword-wielding fighters, but the film is edited in a way that makes it look at least slightly plausible.

My point is that there needs to be a middle ground between absolute realism and suspension of disbelief, which nearly all fight scenes require.

Wolfman Walt · Post by **Wolfman Walt** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:54 pm

Fight on the internet! FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Blargh · Post by **Blargh** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:13 pm

Subhuman wrote:You said that a director needs to be familiar with the intricate arts of swordfighting to make a good fight scene. I disagreed.

At the risk of nitpicking, I claimed that personal experience with sword work would be beneficial, not a prerequisite.

Subhuman wrote:That's a completely separate topic from the original, which was the lack of realism in fight scenes.

So we agree, grand.

Subhuman wrote:Why are you even comparing the two points?

I was querying your bringing it back up. No comparisons were made.

Subhuman wrote:Perhaps I should have used "believability" instead of "realism", but my point remains: Even if a fight is over-the-top and would probably never happen in real life, it still needs to look like it could happen.

Most 'fantastic' aspects of film require such a suspension of disbelief. Nonetheless, my point(s) pertain to the actual technique of the scene, not how plausible it may or may not be.

Subhuman wrote:\snip but the film is edited in a way that makes it look at least slightly plausible.

I disagree, and cite the characteristic stupidity of movie villains as my reason. 'Good' usually triumphs because 'Evil' behaves stupidly. That said, at the risk of introducing another tangent, I would suggest we leave this point at that.

Subhuman wrote:My point is that there needs to be a middle ground between absolute realism and suspension of disbelief, which nearly all fight scenes require.

Debatable, yet again my comment was not about the necessity of absolutes.

As I see it, a director who fashions such a scene without appropriate personal experience and knowledge is comparable to any person foolish enough to attempt the assembly of (for example) explosive substances without the necessary knowledge, experience and instruction. I maintain the horror of (most) fight scenes is sufficient testimonial to their arrogance.

Realistically, I see little point in continuing this discussion. I am not convinced of the validity of changing my perspective on this issue, it might have been possible, but is unrealised. I would wager it something of a commonality amongst most members of this (and other) online communities.

fallout ranger · Post by **fallout ranger** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:38 am

zing zing zing!!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:13 pm

Agree to disagree, then.

And shut up, FR.

avenger69ie · Post by **avenger69ie** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:19 pm

S4ur0n27 wrote:Actually it's Takeshi Kitano.

lol yeah yer probably right, but i've given up on caring about japanese names. I like the culture though.

Edminster · Post by **Edminster** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:37 pm

After wading through this entire topic, I was shocked to realise that nobody even mentioned the greatest fantasy movie ever, The Princess Bride. Particularly, the duel between Inigo Montoya and the six-fingered man.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:30 pm

You're annoying.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:33 pm

You're annoying.

Mr. Teatime · Post by **Mr. Teatime** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:37 pm

I've never watched the princess bride. the funniest swordfight I can think of offhand was the one in blackadder where they drop the swords in favour of a cannon duel.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:15 pm

Spaceballs has the best fights.

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:28 pm

the best swordfight was in saving private ryan when that guy got stabbed really slowly.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:27 pm

How about the guy getting stabbed in the ass in that porn movie?

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:32 pm

sorry i havent seen it

The fight in equillibirimammaiumamnging was pretty good huh