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 "Non-lethal" combat: A proposal View next topic
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Retlaw83
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

fallout ranger wrote:
Maybe in tactics, but I'm too lazy to try it.


It would be really easy to do that in Tactics, using rubber bullets and melee weapons with stun and unconscious damage modifiers.
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MurPHy
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:53 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
fallout ranger wrote:
Maybe in tactics, but I'm too lazy to try it.


It would be really easy to do that in Tactics, using rubber bullets and melee weapons with stun and unconscious damage modifiers.


I really like the idea. Call it FOT: Police Action - Apocalypse Style. BUM BUM BUM.

I volunteer to be a playtester.
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Retlaw83
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 5:06 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

MurPHy wrote:


I really like the idea. Call it FOT: Police Action - Apocalypse Style. BUM BUM BUM.

I volunteer to be a playtester.


lol.

I'm currently getting ready for a rough semester at college and am starting another mod. Most I'm willing to do is drop some non-lethals into the original mission 1, because making entities is easy as all get-out.
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MurPHy
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 5:14 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

What college are you attending? I'm going to a local community college myself.

That's too bad though. Give me a ring if you ever need a FOT guinea pig to test shit out on.
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Franz Schubert
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:43 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Err... the point is not "non-lethal weapons". Each weapon under my proposed system is fully capable of killing.
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MurPHy
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:27 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Like a shotgun with beanbag shells. It can still be used with any lethal shell ( 00 Buckshot, for example), but with beanbag shells, it only creates a nasty welt. That kind of thing, Franz?
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Franz Schubert
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:54 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

No... the point is that TWO levels of combat are hardcoded into the game. Depending on the situation, any given combat will be flagged as either "level 1" or "level 2". Level 1 combat is ended when someone is beaten up. Level 2 combat is ended when the person dies.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 10:09 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Damn Franz youve got all your shit wired.

Maybe a way too conduct a mission with franz's system would be not to kill anyone. Like if you kill any guards and draw attention, mission failed. I would be kinda like a james bond thing, but might be cool. Then again, I'm not sure that stuff in a PA enviroment would be like that. Sure barfights, but covert? Nah, just forget what I wrote unless you like it.
atoga
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 7:47 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Franz_Schubert wrote:
No... the point is that TWO levels of combat are hardcoded into the game. Depending on the situation, any given combat will be flagged as either "level 1" or "level 2". Level 1 combat is ended when someone is beaten up. Level 2 combat is ended when the person dies.


I don't get it. Some people will run away once they're sufficiently beaten up, while others will keep fighting to the bitter end. I don't see how that's different from anything else? Unless the player could choose to "fight to stun" and use non-lethal weapons or something (but I still don't get the whole 'flagging' idea). It's a good idea, but it's not that coherent to me.
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Kashluk
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 7:57 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Or maybe it's enough for your character to be able to choose in the ending seconds of the battle to either finish off the opponent or just leave him lying there in a pool of his/her own blood?

The former would be the normal combat action while the second would leave the enemy alive, yes, but incapacitated.
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atoga
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:09 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Can't you just do that anyway? The player can judge whether they want to kill someone anyway (that's what the "almost dead" condition modifier is for.) And there's always a chance that a player might go too far and kill someone who they were just planning to leave as a cripple for the rest of their life.

Maybe there could be an option where your player could force them to give up (by wounding them enough and then pointing a gun at them and ordering them around). Social skills would be key here.
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Franz Schubert
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 2:22 am Reply with quoteBack to top

atoga wrote:
I don't get it. Some people will run away once they're sufficiently beaten up, while others will keep fighting to the bitter end. I don't see how that's different from anything else? Unless the player could choose to "fight to stun" and use non-lethal weapons or something (but I still don't get the whole 'flagging' idea). It's a good idea, but it's not that coherent to me.

There are many examples in FO where my idea could be implemented. Say you go up to an NPC such as Marcus, and try to steal some ammo from him but are caught. In FO2, he would initiate combat and blow your torso off with his minigun.

It would be much more realistic if, instead, he simply beat the shit out of you, and let you go (not everyone would kill someone just for trying to pickpocket). The way this example would work in my idea is that he would initiate a "level 1" combat, meaning that once either you or him are at low HP, combat ends *UNLESS* either he or you used a "level 2" weapon (a gun).

Say, for instance, that marcus beat you up in HtH combat... combat would end, and you would probably enter a dialogue with him saying something like "Let that be a lesson to you. We don't tolerate stealing blah blah blah."

Another example is when you're talking to Renesco, it's possible to insult him so that the dialogue screen is immediately closed and combat starts... Renesco fights you and combat won't end until he's dead. With my idea, in this situation combat would have been initiated at Level 1, and you wouldn't have to kill Renesco, just slap him around a bit.

Keep in mind, most combat in the game would still start at Level 2, or "lethal" combat. My idea just provides for when a deathmatch just doesn't seem right for certain situations.
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atoga
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 3:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Okay, that's a pretty good idea for keeping things consistent. Kudos to you. o/
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Saint_Proverbius
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 6:52 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I wouldn't mind having dialogue in combat allowed. I think that would be the easiest solution to non-lethal combat. You could simply beat or shoot the hell out of someone, then in your turn you could either finish them off or just talk to them. Demand they surrender, for example.
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halfbroken
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:15 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I agree with Saint. It seems to me the best implementation of a non-lethal end to combat is to have npc's flagged with a flight/beg variable that kicks in after their HP drops below a certain point or they suffer some specific type of injury, a broken arm for example. Then you could try to steal from someone, get caught, beat them shitless, but leave them alive in order to salvage some karma or keep the dirty pigs off your back.
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T-900
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:36 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I just simulated these effects personally... I'd use a spiked knuckle in any fight i didn't want to kill my opponent in, and get a groin or head hit... knocks em out 9/10 icon_evil_laugh

They'd be nice, but once again we're discussing minutia.. we should talk through the big things, perhaps we could present a few ideas on bethesdas forums when they let the world know they are *working* on fallout 3.
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xbow
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:50 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I like it because it reflects real life. In a punch over a spilled beer no sane man intends to kill over it and minor disputes should be in a seprate catagory in the game.
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Stevie D
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:46 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Like it Franz, like it. Another bonus is that if you have a punch up with some drunk and you have to floor him to put an end to the situation, you presumably don't have the rest of the town coming after you for your blood.

That said, is it possible in a pitched fight to reliably judge a blow you are about to land, so that it either stuns or kills, depending on the desired effect? Surely the deciding factor is whether or not you continue bludgeoning the poor fool from the point of unconciousness to the point of death.

DISCLAIMER: Have been too lazy to read whole thread and will have missed it if this has already been said.
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Stevie D
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:46 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

And another thing!

Say you want only to fight someone to the point of submission or unconciousness or whatever. Maybe even merely a smack in the chops just to shut them up.

All well and good, but how far the fight goes depends on your foe, just as much as you. You might well want a brief punch-up, but if your foe is pissed off enough, it could get to the stage where it ain't going to stop until there's a fatality.

My point? A player character can't tailor make a fight to taste. It takes two to tango.
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requiem_for_a_starfury
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 5:09 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

You know most of this has already been implemented, in FO2 it's called a boxing match! The scripts that govern when you win a round due to a knock out, or your opponents in the martial arts training reach a certain level of HPs could probably be used for certain areas or characters in a mod to give you the option of not killing someone or someone not killing you.

As for weapons that are capable of stunning or killing you have that already in FOT with the rubber slugs for the shot gun, the non-lethal ammo setting can be applied to other ammo for different tranq weapons or stun grenades. I'm not sure about non-lethal melee weapons, I'll give them a go and if they work include them in my next map. Even if they don't you can trigger to stop combat when your opponent's HPs reach a certain level or if a character is knocked unconscious. If the player then kills the opponent they'll take an automatic reputation hit.

If it's been in previous games then it's a good chance it'll appear in some form in the next, even if it's just the option to end combat and walk away if your opponent is knocked out, I've certainly done that a few times when playing FO2.
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