Duck and Cover

While thinking about the whole realism thing, something dawned on me. Some tiles should be climable that aren't.

For example, look at the "busted car" tiles (Ruined City -> Objects -> Vehicles). It makes sense that, in "real life" (whatever that is...), a character should be able to climb on top of a wrecked BMW, go prone, and snipe some bad guys.

Two problems with this: If one simply selects the tile and makes it climbable, the player's cursor turns into the yellow arrow no matter where they point to on the tile (so it's damn near impossible to move from, say, the back of the car to the middle). The second problem is that the actor climbs it as if it were a ladder. Looks kinda dumb, but if the tiles were a stack of crates, it doesn't look too bad.

To fix both problems, one could simply put a ladder next to the car/truck/table. The only challenge with this is knowing where the "top" of the object stops so one knows what the top-most ladder wrung should be (not real hard, just look at the object's bounding box's height. I think it's the first 3-didget number). The only "bad" part is that it might get a little repetitive having ladders all over the place.

However, one could put "steps" that go to the top of the object. Not actual step tiles, but maybe a single crate, barrel, etc. tile that stack on each other to form makeshift steps. I guess one could use normal step tiles...

Anyway, what do you dudes/dudettes think?

I was thinking about this very thing yesterday. I noticed that even some ladder tiles ie. the fire escape ladder, isn't climable. It would be nice to make stuff liike that climable, at least. Or like desks and other waist high things.

Howlround wrote:I noticed that even some ladder tiles ie. the fire escape ladder, [aren't] climable.

Actually, the Fire Escape ladders are climbable. I have one on the map I'm currently putting together and it works fine. You'll have to "Update Tiles" and then fiddle with how to line it up. (Range Maps are great for this, BTW...)

The Swimming Pool Ladder tiles also work. (Gots me wun o' them on mah current map, too...)

Max: Personally, I say you shouldn't fuck w/what is climbable/not climbable, mainly because a player should be able to look at a map and not run into funky surprises on where he/she can/cannot go.

BTW, did you try using "Force Move Same Level" while on top of the car?

OTB

OnTheBounce wrote: "Force Move Same Level"

WTF?

Yea - I wasn't planning on making the actual tile climbable. Too wierd looking and playing. If I ever do this stuff, I'll use either ladders or real/makeshift steps. A third possibility is to use the steep slope tiles.

Max-Violence wrote:

OnTheBounce wrote: "Force Move Same Level"

WTF?

"Force Move Same Level" is achieved by holding down Ctrl, then clicking to move. It's very handy when you're trying to move around in areas littered w/bodies, for instance, or fine maneuvering around doors. This way you won't loot the body or fiddle w/the door.

OTB

Oh, yea I knew that. I thought you meant from within the level editor...

*sigh* 11:15 PM... well, I was gonna finish Rebellion2 today. I might still make it if I can stop posting and get back to work.

The idea crossed my mind before, but yea... I thought I'd run in to the problem of a tile having 4 sides, and each one would be climbable...

But I was thinking of using was a few wall tiles ... maybe the side of a mountain. Maybe something to lead to a secret passage or a sniper position.

and while i'm writing this, sorry max, but i couldn't figure out how to get you that song, and i never caught you on irc.

OTB, that update tiles function does the job but it strips all of the tiles that I attached ethereal tags onto And seeing that I use that tag alot, it means I have alot of fixing to do.

Jimmyjay86 wrote:OTB, that update tiles function does the job but it strips all of the tiles that I attached ethereal tags onto And seeing that I use that tag alot, it means I have alot of fixing to do.

Ah yes, good point. That's why I have a building sitting in a map right now that the windows aren't flagged. (The one that I mentioned on the Ruined City Type 5 Walls woes thread.) Personally, I find it easier to use the Update Tiles function and save the manual flagging - which I do only very rarely - for last.

Sorry about that.

OTB

It's a good thing Update Tiles Used doesn't mess with allow/don't allow shadow. I'd be pretty peeved about that.

I usually try and make all Caps ethereal, but as JJ86 pointed out, UTU has other plans... Same with Climbable/not Climbable. Bummer.

Max-Violence wrote:I usually try and make all Caps ethereal, but as JJ86 pointed out, UTU has other plans... Same with Climbable/not Climbable. Bummer.

I don't get why you're making the caps ethereal. You said something about people walking on them before. Can you post a screenshot or send me a part of a screen shot - I'll host it and post it if you like - that shows the types of structure you're having problem(s) with?

OTB

I think caps are waaay to thin/small/narrow/whatever to support someone on it. And if you notice, the actor can/usually does go "over" the edge of the cap, and it looks really, REALLY bad.

For an example, look at Rebellion. Inside the cave, the actors can walk from the 1-tile wide "bridge" to walking on top of the Corrugated Wire Fence wall tiles that I'm sure are too thin to support someone.

Max-Violence wrote:For an example, look at Rebellion. Inside the cave, the actors can walk from the 1-tile wide "bridge" to walking on top of the Corrugated Wire Fence wall tiles that I'm sure are too thin to support someone.

I take it you don't approve of your actors having the balance of characters in an anime flick, then. :mrgreen:

There are also some other things you can do in cases like this. For instance, you could put barbed wire on top of the corrugated wire fences. Railings on bridges are always a good idea, too. ("No they're nooooooooooooooooooooooo..." ::SPLAT:: )

OTB

OnTheBounce wrote:"No they're nooooooooooooooooooooooo..." ::SPLAT::

Heheheheheheheh... good one...

Barbed wire? Isn't there only the sandbagish-type of barbed wire tiles? That would look really dumb on top of the Corr. Wired Fences. The sandbags are thicker than the walls themselves!

I seem to recall some barbed wire "end" tiles that are what look like wooden X's, but that would still look a little wierd. I supposed I could use the thin sandbag "end" tiles.

Hmm... barbed wire would definately work, I just need an appropriate "end" tile...

Max-Violence wrote: Heheheheheheheh... good one...

:mrgreen:

TY. TYVM. ::curtsy::

Max-Violence wrote:Barbed wire? Isn't there only the sandbagish-type of barbed wire tiles? That would look really dumb on top of the Corr. Wired Fences. The sandbags are thicker than the walls themselves!

There are other barbed wire tiles. Ones w/nothing on the ends. They are located in Wasteland/Objects/Barbed Wire. If you want an example of how to do this, just look at the Osceolla map. You will note that the Corrugated Wire Fence there has Barbed Wire perched atop of it. It adds that nice concentration camp vibe to your maps, just when you need it most.

OTB

Well, I don't remember which .mis file that map is, and I'm too lazy to extract any of 'em anyway

I want something on the end so it doesn't look like the wire came outta no-where. The Corr. Wire Fence poles (the skinny, orange ones) would do, but they're too long. If there were 1/4- or 1/5-as tall versions of 'em, they'd fit in nicely.

Damn that Red, is he done the tile editor yet? :twisted:

I think there are two opposing versions of barbed wire fences so you can link one to the other. I never attempted it so far though, so I wouldn't know if it looks good.(visual: I------__-------I, at least I think.)

(Theoritically speaking, you could do this: I----------I)

Getting back to your original Q Max-V. Red got me to thinking here and we know crazy things result when that happens....

Normally a sprite has one bounding box, the top of which defines where a character may walk if he is so inclined. Lets' say we chop up a scenery car into a couple of different pieces; the hood and cab. Each will have a bounding box of different heights so that you may climb from one to the other. It's just a matter of piecing them seamlessly together. Of course it would work better if the car was a few separate tiles instead of a sprite.

I noticed something similar while looking at the graphics from Fallout. The cathedral has a lot of wall tiles that are unique for one location so basically it is like piecing together a puzzle and the final result looks seamless. So if you had a 3d model of a building, it would be a matter of chopping it up into easier to handle bits and piecing them back together in the editor.

Jimmyjay86 wrote:Normally a sprite has one bounding box, the top of which defines where a character may walk if he is so inclined. Lets' say we chop up a scenery car into a couple of different pieces; the hood and cab. Each will have a bounding box of different heights so that you may climb from one to the other. It's just a matter of piecing them seamlessly together. Of course it would work better if the car was a few separate tiles instead of a sprite.

This is similar to what was done w/one of the truck tiles. If you notice, the standard truck cab is just one chunky box, which is very confusing when trying to take cover behind it. However, under "New Tiles" there is a two-piece truck that has the cab of the truck and then the rear section. You can actually take cover behind the rear section and it's perfect for kneeling behind.

OTB

OnTheBounce wrote: This is similar to what was done w/one of the truck tiles. If you notice, the standard truck cab is just one chunky box, which is very confusing when trying to take cover behind it. However, under "New Tiles" there is a two-piece truck that has the cab of the truck and then the rear section. You can actually take cover behind the rear section and it's perfect for kneeling behind.

Oh, yea! I remember those!

Speaking of crazy things: I have an idea (amazing, but true).

Assemble the 2-part truck then put some "steps" that lead up to the rear section and a ladder on/above the rear section that goes up to the top of the cab! Nifty!