A little bit about speech and Lionheart

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 6:23 am

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I spotted over at <a href="http://rpgplanet.com/lionheart/">Lionheart Chronicles</a>, formerly The Inquisition, that Eric Dallaire posted a blurb on the currently defunct <A href="http://feedback.blackisle.com">BIS forums</a> this bit about Speech:<blockquote>Dialogue will be a factor in the game. Currently, we are using two derived attributes, Charm and Outwit, to allow for more dialogue options when using diplomacy. Charm is based initially on your Charisma score, but can be raised by traits, perks, and possibly magic. Outwit is initially based on Intelligence, but it too can also be raised in similar ways. A higher outwit score will give you dialogues that attempt to trick an opponent, while a high charm allows you to flatter or sweet-talk someone into get something you want. We are in the process of expanding the roles of these two derived attributes so that you can use them in many situations.</blockquote>BLEH! Gimme a Skill, baby! I want my Skill/Attribute balance. Having to blow Perks rather than spending skill points to raise my ability to influence and trick others just isn't kosher.

Section8 · Post by **Section8** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 7:09 am

That's kind of fucked. And it makes IN even more of an uber stat. If there is no "Outwit" skill, then it means a high IN automatically increases the derived stat, so all intelligent characters are going to be sharp talkers. I dunno about you guys, but I'll bet Myron had a high IN and couldn't talk his way through a situation to save himself.

4too · Post by **4too** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 8:18 am

If speech skills can be "bought"
by MAGIC, and not earned through skill points, then another short cut
is created to fascillite the quick fix, the attention deficit child with in us all.

Whether the game can function on two
levels at the same time and be successful will be interesting.

Will the "thinking", character developement game, the ROLE PLAYING GAME, be as complete as the Action
Game that promises quick rewards
with MAGIC BOOSTS, whethet they be
+5 Dueling Dildos, or a MAGIC=DRUGS
to CHARM and DECIEVE.

I am wondering if MAGIC or rather DRUGS will be like in FOT. A quick
thrill, and an instant (easy=cheat) way to beat the single player version,and frustrate the multi player version.

Instant God Mode equals instant gratification equals instant dollars.

The tendancy is to go where the money is. It's a life boat situation, after all.

4too

VasikkA · Post by **VasikkA** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 6:47 pm

Feels kinda stupid, it raises the importance of Intelligence even more. I'd rather have a speech skill to determine the dialogue choices instead of INT. CHR is fine as it is.

Red · Post by **Red** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 7:24 pm

Personally I think one of the reasons that speech has such a low importance is that even in Fallout it played a much smaller role than everyone thought... Speech tests aren't all that frequent... I was rather sadenned when I discovered that - specially when I did several games rasing the stat to 150+... (even had a game at 250...)

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 11:52 pm

That's kind of like saying Science or Repair aren't that important because they're only used in a handful of places, Red.

Where the Speech skill is used is where it's important. Bluffing the leader of the Khans for example, allows you to solve that situation without combat. Of course it won't affect every single line of dialogue in the game. That's not the point of it.

Then again, I halfway wonder if the point of your post wasn't more ego masturbation than providing something useful. LOOK! I KNOW SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T READ THE DIALOGUE TREES DON'T KNOW! rather than figuring out why it's like that by design.

Red · Post by **Red** » Thu Aug 15, 2002 2:02 am

I'm not saying it's not important SP, I'm just saying that the developers probably used FO's as reference, and when you look at it, most of the dialog is ridden by intelligence, not speech skill. This is, imho, a huge mistake - even in Fallout.

Of course removing it altogether makes it even worst as then there's even less options.

Rat Keeng · Post by **Rat Keeng** » Thu Aug 15, 2002 2:21 am

I don't think Speech should be treated any different than other skills in the game, Doctor, Repair, Science, Lockpick, Traps, Sneak, Outdoorsman. It lets you master a skill and benefit from a few things that's affected by it. If you want the other benefits, you gotta replay the game, so i see no reason for Speech to have more uses than other skills.

Magic influencing skills, bah! That's why you can't have magic in SPECIAL, it screws up a perfectly good thing.

I'll bet Myron had a high IN and couldn't talk his way through a situation to save himself.

What, a pale-faced geek talking about brahmin shit isn't charming?

Post by **DarkUnderlord** » Thu Aug 15, 2002 12:44 pm

Saint_Proverbius wrote:Then again, I halfway wonder if the point of your post wasn't more ego masturbation than providing something useful.

Nah. You're just jealous because Red found out the exit grid isn't hard-coded like you thought.

Rosh · Post by **Rosh** » Thu Aug 15, 2002 3:52 pm

CHA = Appeal of personality and ability to tint said personality to match needs of the situation.
INT = Intelligence level of talking.
Speech = Effectiveness of presuasion and influence through speech.

That's why Speech is supposed to be an acquired skill, not a derived skill.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Thu Aug 15, 2002 5:12 pm

The good thing about making speech a stand alone skill and not a derived statistic is that it makes the charecter more moduler.

The beauty of the special system was that a charecter could be "born" (created) with an avrage Int but still be a good speaker. You could develop skills without having aptitude towards them, but having a high INT or CHA helped you develop the skill faster.