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King of Creation
Righteous Subjugator
Righteous Subjugator


Joined: 20 Dec 2003
Posts: 5103

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

[ Community -> Editorial ] - News related to Top Story: Prove Us Wrong

There has been a lot of talk in the last few days (again) about why we, the Fallout community, are so set in our ways. One thing that has been really bothering me while reading comments on various forums has to do with gameplay. Take this for example, a comment made by aries100 on the RPGWatch forums:

To me, clear it is, that NMA basically wants the same gameplay as in FO1 and FO2.
Maybe they will agree to updated graphics, and the use of a PhysX engine in the game, but they still want their turnbased combat and the other things in FO1 and FO2. However, this isn't a realistic approach in today's competetive market.

I don't think this has ever been really addressed. Why, please tell me, is turnbased combat an unrealistic approach in the market? The Fallout series was a commercial success, and Tactics held records for pre-order. Some of the most successful RPG and RPG-esque games in history have had turnbased combat, most notably the Final Fantasy series. You cannot tell me that Final Fantasy was not a commercial success.

So to anyone reading this, I pose this challenge: Prove to me that turn-based combat, or even any other aspect of Fallout gameplay, is not marketable.

I don't want to see baseless claims like this one by aries100. If I (and the rest of the FO community) am to be convinced that turnbased combat is unreasonable, then I need a very convincing argument.

I also encourage any developers that read this, whether from Bethesda or from another company, to add some input to this as well.

Discuss!

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POOPERSCOOPER
Paparazzi
Paparazzi


Joined: 05 Apr 2003
Posts: 5022
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:12 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I think there is different philosophies between western and eastern developers(except nintendo). Easterns don't really try to innovate or do anything new they just add better graphics but western developers always try to do something new or completely different in there games for better or worse. I also think that no PC rpg in the last 10 years with turn base has been even close to as successful as FF7 and so the japs aren't really tied down to do something different since japs and most Americans will eat the shit up as they only care about story and boobs and dragon quest. The most successful RPGs for PCs in the last 10 years have been real time hack and slash( baulders gate, diablo clones?).



Also half the people I know who play FF say that its not turn base(the ones before 11/12) because there is an active time bar or something.

As to having choices and consequences in the game that really not represented in the Japanese market besides maybe the Saga series but I've never played those and they haven't been as successful as square or enix's other series. TO tell you the truth only Fallout had real consequences for your actions, all the other games I've played just had the illusion that you were making your own path.

Consequences and shit can be marketable, that Fahrenheit game marketed on having choices and it looked to have done reasonably well in sales but it also wasn't an RPG which require more work to make.
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Nedrah
Scarf-wearing n00b
Scarf-wearing n00b


Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:30 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

POOPERSCOOPER wrote:
I think there is different philosophies between western and eastern developers(except nintendo). Easterns don't really try to innovate or do anything new they just add better graphics but western developers always try to do something new or completely different in there games for better or worse. .


Bullshit, some of the most innovative tiles come from the "east", while there's plenty of "upgrades" to successfull titles coming from the west. I do get where you're coming from, but I couldn't let some generalized statement like that just go by.

It has, in my humble oppinion, more to do with the whole "Realtime is the new exciting thing" still carrying over from when C&C and other similar titles were released. Turn based just sounds like something your dad would do, to most people. It hardly has anything to do at all with the system itself. It's a matter of fashion - TB will return, just like trousers with flowers on them and shoes that make you 2 feet bigger did.
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minigunwielder
Vault Scion
Vault Scion


Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 210
Location: Eye of Terror

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Nedrah wrote:
Bullshit, some of the most innovative tiles come from the "east"


Skies of Arcadia would have been awesome if it was TB with grid and Initiative system.

Airship battles.
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DarkPhilly
SDF!
SDF!


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:13 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

The current trend in gaming, can be compared to smoking in some
respects. "Apparently" tobbaco companies appeal to new smokers or the
younger crowd, the same can be said about gaming.

Companies are all ways trying to appeal to the younger generation (8 - 16)
and most kids can't be distracted with "slow?" gaming. It has to be fast and
flashy and have all the bells and whistles to go along with it.

On the flip side, companies are ignoring the seasoned gamer, who most
likely was around when Wolf3d (The first pc game I played for example),
and fantasy games on the PC were in their infancy.

They switched to RT/RTP because it kept the player engaged (younger
generation) and the concensus of many younger people is that TB is boring
and "GHEY."

TB games are basically an advanced game of chess. It involves choices,
strategy and the concequences of your actions. Many people don't like to
play chess, but would rather play checkers (while with some degree of
strategy it can be argued that checkers can be refered to as RT because the
movements can be faster, and little to no thought can be placed in it).

Thats just my opinion, and take on it. Companies will all ways be appealing
to the younger generation to make more money, because the seasoned
player can play both game types, while the newer crowd can only play what
has been presented in their lifetime (RT).
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Lysandus
Scarf-wearing n00b
Scarf-wearing n00b


Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:27 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

It's not just "stupid appeal".

Compeling turn-based gameplay is simply too time consuming(at least they think it is) for most developers.

It's easier to just slap more hp on something for extra difficulty, than to think about a lot of move/counter-move stuff. herve
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VasikkA
No more Tuna
No more Tuna


Joined: 15 Jun 2002
Posts: 8711

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:30 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I like the idea. Someone should post this challenge on other forums.
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Jesus Christ
Mamma's Gang member
Mamma's Gang member


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1313

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:33 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Try to post it at the t.e.s. forums, let's see if they manage to lock a thread before it even gets posted. smile
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VasikkA
No more Tuna
No more Tuna


Joined: 15 Jun 2002
Posts: 8711

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

RPG Codex perhaps? They aren't that homogenous bunch anymore.
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Wolfman Walt
Mamma's Gang member
Mamma's Gang member


Joined: 15 Mar 2003
Posts: 5171
Location: La Grange, Kentucky

PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:11 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Perhaps as a counter challenge (for us), some of our members should write about why the important things in fallout (based on individual preference) DO work in todays market and even cite some newer examples of such. I do like this idea though.
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talesfromthecrypt
SDF!
SDF!


Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:14 am Reply with quoteBack to top

So whats the reward for proving that tb sucks? If its more than 10 $ i will sell my soul
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Frater Perdurabo
Paragon
Paragon


Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 2427
Location: Vőro

PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:30 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Turn based works in 3rd person, not in 1st. Since we already know that the game is going to be 1st person, I'd glad to do away with TB. Combat never what Fallout was about, so I don't really care.

However, if we get some POS combat system, i.e. the one in Oblivion... angry
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Matt_Helm
Glutton Creeper designer


Joined: 27 Dec 2002
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:52 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I'd say the first clue lies in the market. If TB sold well then there would make more TB games. TB games in this modern era fall into two classes: franchise games (Civ, HOMM, etc) or independent/east bloc games (Space Empires IV, Silent Storm, Massive Assault, Laser Squad Nemesis, etc). While all of us know about Silent Storm, to take a recent example, if you go to a game store and mention it you will likely receive a lot of blank looks from the other customers and the staff. The lack of activity at the Nival forums shows that no one cares about the game.

Look at how long it took to play through a mission in JA2, most stupid kids don't have an attention span long enough to sit still for the amount of time it took to sneak a team through the darkness to make silent kills. The market is overrun with morons that only want to run-n-gun as fast as they can, careful and deliberate strategy is not something most idiot children are really even capable of conceptualizing. My teenage nephew, who is a brighter bulb than most, is a gamer and he thinks that turn based games are slow and quaint. It's "boring" to sit and plan out moves and consider options. If a game doesn't sell well with the teenage market it will not do well overall.

Consider this: which made more money, Fallout or Diablo? Fallout 2 or Diablo 2? Investors look for maximum potential profit and if you don't think investors are important to getting a game published you don't have a right to any opinions on this topic.

I think it is time to face the fact that we are anachronisms and left-overs from another age of gaming as far as the mainstream American market is concerned. Sitting around thinking that we are enlightened with a truth that has escaped the rest of the world is not really constructive. I also think that events will demonstrate that no one cares if anything has been proven to us on any level.

Now I am depressed. I'm going to play Panzer General.
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PsychoSniper
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:01 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Exellent post you stupid peice of shit.


NOT.


Final Fantisy is turn based. It sells well, desptie being j-RPG crap.


Your post has been read and determined to be total bullshit.


NEXT!
Brother None
Desert Strider
Desert Strider


Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 825
Location: Rotterdam, the Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:48 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Matt_Helm wrote:
If TB sold well then there would make more TB games.


If there were more TB games TB would sell better.
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Matt_Helm
Glutton Creeper designer


Joined: 27 Dec 2002
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:02 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Kharn wrote:
Matt_Helm wrote:
If TB sold well then there would make more TB games.


If there were more TB games TB would sell better.


There are plenty of TB games out there if you look for them, they just don't sell enough to make an impact on the market. The latest TB Xcom clone will be out in a few weeks, let's see who well it does. I'm going to buy a copy but will anyone else outside the dedicated TB community?

If there was such a huge market for TB PA games why hasn't some independent or east bloc company made their own Fallout clone?


Last edited by Matt_Helm on Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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PsychoSniper
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:10 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Matt_Helm wrote:
Kharn wrote:
Matt_Helm wrote:
If TB sold well then there would make more TB games.


If there were more TB games TB would sell better.


There are plenty of TB games out there if you look for them, they just don't sell enough to make an impact on the market. The latest TB Xcom clone will be out in a few weeks, let's see who well it does. I'm going to buy a copy but will anyone else outside the dedicated TB community?



So FO is turbased, and doesnt sell well.

Why are you making a FO PnP game the ?



:drunk:


Last edited by PsychoSniper on Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:18 am; edited 1 time in total
Matt_Helm
Glutton Creeper designer


Joined: 27 Dec 2002
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:14 am Reply with quoteBack to top

PsychoSniper wrote:
Matt_Helm wrote:
Kharn wrote:
Matt_Helm wrote:
If TB sold well then there would make more TB games.


If there were more TB games TB would sell better.


There are plenty of TB games out there if you look for them, they just don't sell enough to make an impact on the market. The latest TB Xcom clone will be out in a few weeks, let's see who well it does. I'm going to buy a copy but will anyone else outside the dedicated TB community?



So FO is turbased, and doesnt sell well.

Why are you making a FO PnP game the ?



icon_drunk


I didn't say that, as you well know. Nice try though.

And I was paid to adapt FO weapons and equipment to D20, that is why.
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Brother None
Desert Strider
Desert Strider


Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 825
Location: Rotterdam, the Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:19 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Matt_Helm wrote:
There are plenty of TB games out there if you look for them, they just don't sell enough to make an impact on the market.


And why is that? Your assumption seems to be that turnbased has a big enough market impact to make the difference between a hit and a flop. Problem is, your argument backing this up already assumes the conclusion, it's reasoning in a circle.

You're not really answering the question KoC posed because you're not making any valid comparison between equally marketed game. Fallout and Diablo were never marketed in the same way...Fallout wasn't actually marketed at all.
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PsychoSniper
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:20 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Is D20 some live action RPG system ?

Turnbased you say ?

icon_wink
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