What Oblivion taught us

[VasikkA]

I've played Oblivion long enough to form an opinion about the game and found several aspects of the game that would hurt the upcoming Fallout 3, if implemented. Fallout 3 will stay true to its roots, or so they(Bethsoft) claim, but it will also most probably be somewhat similar to Oblivion. I'm not talking about the setting here, but rather about game design. If Bethesda people ever read this forum, I think pointing out the bad things in Oblivion instead of making stupid suggestions would be a better approach to ensure these problems will be 'fixed' in Fallout 3. Here's my list of game design flaws that I want to see fixed in Fallout 3:

• Dialogue. We all knew Bethsoft's inability to produce quality dialogue, so the simplified dialogue in Oblivion didn't come as a surprise. Oblivion doesn't even come close to such masterpieces as Fallout, PS:T, Arcanum and Bloodlines when it comes to dialogue. In Fallout, the dialogue screen is one of the key interface screens in the game where important in-game decisions were made. This is where charismatic and witty characters could show off and talk the NPC into oblivion. Dialogue was not only a mean to get new quests. Extensive voice acting is a good thing, provided you don't get the same response from every identical looking NPC with no personality of their own whatsoever(a hint). Given the lack of good voice actors in the gaming industry, I prefer quality before quantity. Unimportant characters don't need a voice, but I guess Bethsoft felt obliged to give every character a voice because of the first-person viewpoint(to not break the illusion". It would be a shame if Fallout 3 has the same quality of dialogue.
• Combat. This is probably my biggest peeve with Oblivion. As it currently is, combat doesn't offer enough tactical variety to keep the player from getting frustrated after killing the 111th bandit. Again, why not focus on the quality of the combat instead of quantity. Like so many first-person RPGs have done before, Oblivion shows the weaknesses in incorporating RPG rules with real-time combat. The very concept of role-playing demands that the outcome is dependent on character skills, tools and a luck-factor to keep things interesting. If the outcome is dependent on the player's ability and reflexes, it's not roleplaying, but more closer to an action-game. Skills being coefficients of some sort is not close enough. If you decide to use such a system, that's fine, but don't call it an RPG. How to successfully implement SPECIAL rules with first-person(thus real-time) combat, is beyond my cognitive abilities. Let me put is simply: The combat in Fallout 3 can not be first-person and real-time if it's based on SPECIAL. Really.
• Minigames. These have got to go. Again we're talking about using the player's skills instead of your character's skills. What is the point of levelling up and developing a character if it is ultimately you who pick the locks or seduce an NPC. The speechcraft minigame is just a poor excuse for not writing dialogue. Plus, it isn't even fun.
• Level scaling. Alright, many have complained about this so I guess it's pretty self-explanatory. My take on it is that it's not the game's responsibility to babysit the player in a big bad world and make all options available to him/her at any stage of the game. Some places just aren't meant for beginners and some enemies aren't supposed to be killable at level 1. If you can't kill somebody or a dungeon is too tough for you, retreat and try again later. There's even a difficulty slider in the game, if you ever get stuck in combat!
• User Interface. Oblivion has a separate all-in-one screen for inventory management, map, journal et cetera, much like the Pipboy 2000 in Fallout. The tabbed system isn't too bad in itself, but the problem is in how the information is presented; large item icons in a window that fills only 1/2 of your screen even though the game is paused. The font is way too large, which quickly fills the inventory tabs forcing you to scroll the inventory just like in the ol' clunky Fallout equivalent. Outdoors/Dungeon map view doesn't show enough of the explored surroundings and you can't alter the zoom-level(or at least I haven't found a button that does that). To change your weapon/active spell you must enter the inventory screen instead of changing it in game view(although I think Bethesda didn't want a much too noticeable HUD for the sake of the holy immersion). I wonder why Bethesda didn't make separate user intefaces for the XBOX and PC. Fortunately, there is a mod available that greatly improves the user interface, but you can't rely on the mod community to fix the brainfarts in interface design.
• Quests. Oblivion offers a large variety of interesting quest ideas, but the implementation leaves a lot to be desired. My definition of a good quest is that there's an interesting setup, a decent compensation(money, item, experience, you name it) and several alternative solutions. An unexpected twist, repercussion and/or a moral dilemma is a bonus. The solution should stimulate the player into making a decision, may it be good or evil or something in between. I consider this division is better than a character based division, i.e. speech, sneaky, combat. Sometimes the solutions don't have to be in black and white. In Fallout's case, the moral differences between different solutions often were hazy. It's not a question about choosing WHAT quests to accept, but HOW to solve them. The quests in Oblivion are more interesting than the average CRPG quest and often offer a decent compensation(although the reward a bit unclear at the moment of acceptance) too, but the lack of alternatives when completing them is a disgrace.
• AI. I'm not joking about this one. The much-hyped Radiant AI is probably the biggest letdown in Oblivion in case you happened to see some of the preview videos like this E3 video, for example. It's not bad, but it sure ain't a feat, either. In more than one case, the complex AI-algorithms caused moments of hilarity. I'm not going to bitch about this problem any further, because I know AI is not a game design choice and probably will be improved in Fallout 3.
• Character Freedom. Despite being very non-linear, some doors and chests remain magically shut. Certain NPCs can't be killed and even the weakest of chests can't be smashed if you're powerful. Killing someone in the middle of night without alarming guards is next to impossible. The quests are optimized for good characters. Being a self-centered son of a bitch isn't allowed... These are just a few examples of the restrictions in Oblivion. General rule in CRPGs is: the less restrictions, the better.

Things that I want to be featured in Fallout 3 is the non-linear gameworld and soil erosion(yes, I'm a big fan ).

[S4ur0n27]

Oblivion is made for young teens, plain and simple. Every aspect of it is overly simple, from dialogues to quests.

Fallout is a game that was designed for a more mature audience, for adults. Sure I liked it at 13, but since I played it again at 20, I had a different experience and I'm liking it even more.

[Redeye]

hmm...

Damn, and I really wanted to play Oblivion.

Maybe I'll pick it up in 6-12 months on the cheap.

With plenty of mods and fixes.


FO3?

Hooboy.

Minigames:
Perhaps the stats/abil scores could make them easier/give extra time.
Or just let people have the option of "Olde Schoole" vs. "twitch haXor".
Just a setting in the option screen.
Everybody happy.

For combat... oohh. How?
Does it switch to 3rd person Turn Based when in Combat Mode?
Then you fight like in Anachronox and similar.
If you stay on the real map instead of a Combat Arena with FF-style
jumping around then... mmmmaybe.
Or have a stat-modded F-person RT fight.
How?
Have the stats act as an auto-aimer, modifying your own skill?
Perhaps you could even set biases(aim for the middle, limbs, head,
take your time, fire like a crazy, etc.).
Maybe your speed/acrobatics/agility will cause time to slow down so
you can be an arthritic old fart and still "pwnzor those mutant noobs."

There must be exploding heads! Mayhem! I want to see arms and legs
flying!
They must, must have children and flamethrowers.

But they must.



[/b]

[St. Toxic]

You're listing the things that went wrong with Oblivion -- quite the undertaking, if done wholeheartedly. I'll assist with the minors, as it's the least I can do.

- Passing time meant staring into a wall for half an hour, while quick travel from one edge of the world to another was a minute breeze of fresh air. That's pretty fun. The whole time aspect, at least from what I noticed, didn't -- well, there was no time aspect was there? The world revolved around what you did, and that breaks immersion beyond non-voiced dialogues, I'd say.

- Speaking of lost minutes and broken immersion; the loading. The whole sector separation thing man, are there really no better alternatives? Walking about in forests, well... it wasn't so bad. In fact, if it didn't say "LOADING" I wouldn't have noticed it for the common lag, but grabbing "doors" -- that's different. NPC's walking into "doors" ( not really doors are they? ) and fading into nowhere, quite annoying. Doing it yourself was pure hell ( especially when it came to shopping ) and at least I envied the npc's who could just fade out of existance. So yeah, that's no go for any game. You want to make it a large, living, realistic, amazing and overly hyped gameworld? By all means do. But don't split it into millions of tiny levels, jeez; 500 000 interconnected closets -- that's not the enormous playground you want, is it? That's more like the Cube death machine.

- Invisible walls. It's the kind of thing that really bugs some people, like me. I don't care if there's nothing of interest beyond that hill -- I mean I wouldn't mind if it was my decision to turn back -- but when the game tells me that going any further is pointless, and when my path is blocked by impassible air, a conflict is created between me and the game world. We don't agree, I guess we shouldn't spend any more time together bickering about it. Uninstallation. So, just to say it once more; I ( and I assume everyone else ) will not stand for this kind of shit even in the endless desert promenade that is Fallout. Avert it in some way, make the whole thing loop if you like, but don't print "DURRH WE HAVEN'T REALLY PUT ANYTHING ON THE WEST SIDE OF THAT WASTELAND" in the center of the screen, while pushing the player back with invisible hands. This is assuming that Fallout 3 will be an "immersive masterpiece" without the standard world map, a tool which sort of eliminates problems such as these. ((To show scale, you need only show the variables that compose it -- time and route -- which Fallout did extremely well. No point in walking around in the desert for five actual hours.))

I'm going to grab some sleep now. Fill in for me on this, rest of ya'.

[box]

Dialogue went nowhere, fast. Having three hundred people all over the game map repeat the same silly things, over and over again, make for a fifty dollar turd.


Oh, and the other thing--

They must, must have children and flamethrowers.

Memories... Teach you to throw rocks at me. Fuck you you little brat. WHOOSH!
Dude, you know they won't. Have children I mean. Isn't it illegal or something in Eurabia?

[johnnygothisgun]

That's a good point. I mean - what the Christ? There wasn't a single child in that entire game.

And for having such a sophisticated character design system, everyone looked pretty damned similar.

That is to say... just about everyone looked the same. It was excusable in Fallout because of the fact that it's in 2d, and also the fact that characters were actually given some (gasp) character (oh yeah, dialogue again).

[Burnov]

What is the point of levelling up and developing a character if it is ultimately you who pick the locks or seduce an NPC

I would have ideally liked to have seen your skill augment your personal abilities in oblivion regarding lock picking, etc instead of it being two separate options, because that in essence was what made the TES series of RPGS what they were. That's what set them apart from the countless other Might and Magic type rpgs that were so mind numbingly boring due to lack of interactivity.

Fallout was in fact a very rare case in which I didn't mind stat dependency. A 3d fallout played in realtime from the first or third person NEEDS character interaction otherwise it will quickly resemble the sordid mess that Deus-I shot a guy at point blank with a gun but my small arms skill isn't high enough so the bullet flew out of the gun at a 90 degree angle because I failed my skill check-Ex was.


So really. We're looking at least partial bastardization here if the oblivion engine/gameplay style is going to be merged with fallout licence. The game needs to be interactive otherwise it's going to be fucking boring. The original classic fallout gameplay type is the only game of the genre that I could enjoy stat dependency.

On the other hand. Like I said, Oblivion and Daggerfall were fun because my characters skills augmented my own abilities. Take a look at a lot of the really classic console rpgs, they're horrendously boring and uninteractive. The only way to salvage any semblance of strategic gameplay in a fallout sequel like this is incredibly sophisticated and lifelike AI that has to play by the same rules as the player, which is very unlikely. Remember without the ability for you to move around on a strategic hex board and make targeted shots and sneak around, etc as you could in fallout. It would have been a pretty boring and straightforward rpg. Dialogue be fucking damned, if I don't have fun utilizing strategy rather than pointless stat-building. It's not a fucking game, and it's not fucking fun.

A lot of the stats that would be handled during turn based combat in fallout are going to logically be handled in real time given what fallout 3 is, and forcing some kind of absurd stat dependency that transcends logic (as per my example of Deus Ex) will just make the game frustrating and stupid. By that I mean even more frustrating and stupid than the whole idea of a realtime first-person fallout licenced game is.

Imagine if in oblivion you lined up a perfect shot with a bow, and the arrow as coming close to hitting, but it didn't because your skills didn't pass a check to successfully hit, even though logically it should have given the trajectory. This is what I'm talking about, RPGS played in realtime shouldn't be defined by that kind of retarded stupidity. Who wants that kind of gameplay?

[Redeye]

As for stats modding your skills, I meant positive. Never negative.
So your char is as good as you are plus stats.
Not minus.

Thats part of what we play games for.

Part.

(So a perfect shot is a perfect shot. Stats only ADD.)

[VasikkA]

Minigames:
Perhaps the stats/abil scores could make them easier/give extra time.
Or just let people have the option of "Olde Schoole" vs. "twitch haXor".
Just a setting in the option screen.
Everybody happy.

My point was that it contradicts the concept of roleplaying, where character stats play major role in determining if an action is successful or not. The problem with trying to please everyone is that one or both alternatives usually suffer from this compromise.

- Passing time meant staring into a wall for half an hour, while quick travel from one edge of the world to another was a minute breeze of fresh air. That's pretty fun. The whole time aspect, at least from what I noticed, didn't -- well, there was no time aspect was there? The world revolved around what you did, and that breaks immersion beyond non-voiced dialogues, I'd say.

I'm in favor of instant travel if the transportation method is given a logical reason, like portals, horse carriages or ship routes between major cities. But being able to travel across wilderness to distant locations simply through 'knowledge' of the location doesn't feel right.

I find the daily rhythm of the shopkeepers rather annoying; possibly because the rest of the AI is so bad, which made me think why not just skip the whole 'realistic NPC behaviour' thing. And yeah, the NPCs feel like they are there only for you.

- Speaking of lost minutes and broken immersion; the loading. The whole sector separation thing man, are there really no better alternatives? Walking about in forests, well... it wasn't so bad. In fact, if it didn't say "LOADING" I wouldn't have noticed it for the common lag, but grabbing "doors" -- that's different. NPC's walking into "doors" ( not really doors are they? ) and fading into nowhere, quite annoying. Doing it yourself was pure hell ( especially when it came to shopping ) and at least I envied the npc's who could just fade out of existance. So yeah, that's no go for any game. You want to make it a large, living, realistic, amazing and overly hyped gameworld? By all means do. But don't split it into millions of tiny levels, jeez; 500 000 interconnected closets -- that's not the enormous playground you want, is it? That's more like the Cube death machine.

It's still an improvement compared to Baldur's Gate where the tent you saw from the outside grew 10x bigger once you stepped inside. As you probably noticed, the indoors aren't completely disconnected with the outdoors. People that 'fade away' still exist and continue walking on the other side of the door. I believe this decision was made to enhance performance so that your gfx card doesn't need to load both indoor and outdoor textures at the same time, so it's not a game design flaw, really.

- Invisible walls. It's the kind of thing that really bugs some people, like me. I don't care if there's nothing of interest beyond that hill -- I mean I wouldn't mind if it was my decision to turn back -- but when the game tells me that going any further is pointless, and when my path is blocked by impassible air, a conflict is created between me and the game world. We don't agree, I guess we shouldn't spend any more time together bickering about it. Uninstallation. So, just to say it once more; I ( and I assume everyone else ) will not stand for this kind of shit even in the endless desert promenade that is Fallout. Avert it in some way, make the whole thing loop if you like, but don't print "DURRH WE HAVEN'T REALLY PUT ANYTHING ON THE WEST SIDE OF THAT WASTELAND" in the center of the screen, while pushing the player back with invisible hands. This is assuming that Fallout 3 will be an "immersive masterpiece" without the standard world map, a tool which sort of eliminates problems such as these. ((To show scale, you need only show the variables that compose it -- time and route -- which Fallout did extremely well. No point in walking around in the desert for five actual hours.)

This sort of problem exists pretty much in every game that allows free movement. A game always has to set limits and boundaries in some way or another. Even Fallout had restricted world and location maps, but it didn't feel like an annoyance, at least not for me. The most common solutions to deal with this problem in games are: invisible walls, empty wasteland that goes on forever, mountainside/impassable jungle or making the game take place on an island. Motocross Madness had this hilarious slingshot that fired you like a cannon ball if you tried to escape the designated area. I guess I'm more bitchy about other, more trivial restrictions, like magically locked chests, quest-triggered doors, unbreakable items and the like. They are more severe immersion busters, in my opinion.

[Haris]

I am not defending Oblivion here i have not even played it yet to form an opinion about it.

But why is everyone having some fix idea about Fallout being all about dialogues. If you remember fallout 1 that is considered by comunity as better one than fallout 2 it pretty much had one liners allmost all the way trough the game. For example floaters had 3 short sentences that they keept saying over and over again.

Its fallout 2 that had long dialogues with all the options and different effects. And even that was a huge illusion cause if you read the scripts you realise that you never need more than 90% in speach and 75% of times its used it doesnt even check how much you have but it rather just checks if its taged. And even than its not used that much. They where just good at making an illusion that speach mathers alot. But it really doesnt except for like 15-20 npcs.

[VasikkA]

That is true, but the quality of dialogue improved in later BIS games, namely Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment(even Icewind Dale 2) and of course in Troika's games. But still, depending on your intelligence and speech skill, dialogue had an effect on many situations in Fallout. Some quests required dialogue and a lot of the in-game information was passed through dialogue. More importantly, your character was given multiple choices to react to NPC's responses(positively, negatively or nonchalantly), whereas in Oblivion you aren't given this option and the dialogue gives you the feeling that you're not in control of your character.

[Haris]

But you do realise that Bethesda has all the rights to rip of everything that fallout 1 and 2 had and put it in fallout 3. Why most other post apoc games fail is cause they want to copy fallout series but at the same time they must avoid fallout similarities to a degre where they cant be sued for making exact same game and concept. Bethesda in this game doesnt have to think about that. They are suposed to copy fallout and all its features. So it may not be as good as fallout 1 and 2 but it at least has a chance of being best new post apoc game so far after fallout 1 and 2. At least we can hope.

[VasikkA]

But you do realise that Bethesda has all the rights to rip of everything that fallout 1 and 2 had and put it in fallout 3.

Yes, and they also have the right to ignore everything in Fallout 1 and 2.

Why most other post apoc games fail is cause they want to copy fallout series but at the same time they must avoid fallout similarities to a degre where they cant be sued for making exact same game and concept. Bethesda in this game doesnt have to think about that.

What do you mean? I've yet to play a game that is completely unlike any other game in the same genre.

They are suposed to copy fallout and all its features.

No, they are supposed to make a good Fallout sequel.

So it may not be as good as fallout 1 and 2 but it at least has a chance of being best new post apoc game so far after fallout 1 and 2. At least we can hope.

Too early to tell, but I suggest you play Oblivion to get a foretaste of what to possibly expect.

[Haris]

Too early to tell, but I suggest you play Oblivion to get a foretaste of what to possibly expect.

I recently bough 7 new games that i havent played trough and i am nowhere sick of any of them. So Oblivion will have to wait.

What do you mean? I've yet to play a game that is completely unlike any other game in the same genre.

Yea they are similar but you wont find a game that has brotherhood of steel and pipboy and brahmins and special system and stimpaks and some actuall fallout towns and so on.

[St. Toxic]

I'm in favor of instant travel if the transportation method is given a logical reason, like coma, winged pegasi or submarine tours between key Pokémon centers.

Well sure, aldoh neither of these methods are "instant" -- they take time and they ( should ) see a fair bit of action. How you can stand for portals is beyond me.

But being able to travel across wilderness to distant locations simply through 'knowledge' of the location doesn't feel right.

Well, I like the world map. I'd even enjoy traveling to unmarked locations with a single click, like you would in the Fallouts and say Arcanum, alot more than running about in the forest like a retard, looking for Destard or whatever the hell you do in Oblivion. But since time has no impact on anything, and encounters are swiftly avoided when map jumping, a problem is forged -- lack of penalty. Map jumping across the whole gameworld without feeling worn out makes the universe seem fairly small, and it does indeed cripple balance and immersion.

I find the daily rhythm of the shopkeepers rather annoying, and yeah, the NPCs are there only for you.

That's contradiction, isn't it? They're there only for you, but they're never there for you? Eh? EH? Oh well... I wouldn't mind if they went to sleep or ate during lunchtime, if there was some painless way to pass a few hours, at say, the click of a button.

It's still an improvement.

No, that's not an improvement. Don't call it an improvement, please.

As you probably noticed, the indoors aren't completely disconnected with the outdoors. People that 'fade away' still exist and continue walking on the other side of the door.

The people "fade away" and clones spawn on another level. That's pretty disconnected.

I believe this decision was made to enhance performance so that your gfx card doesn't need to load both indoor and outdoor textures at the same time, so it's not a game design flaw, really.

Game design: let's have high resolution textures at the expense of level size > load every two steps > crippling gameplay. That's a game design flaw, if I ever seen one. Don't accept that kind of shit man, you're the consumer, you call the shots.

This sort of problem exists pretty much in every game that allows free movement.

Not really. It's not the restriction that's the problem, it's how you restrict.

A game always has to set limits and boundaries in some way or another.

Subtility is the key.

The most common solutions to deal with this problem in games are: invisible walls GRAWL

That's not a goddamn solution!

I guess I'm more bitchy about other, more trivial restrictions, like magically locked chests, quest-triggered doors, unbreakable items and the like. They are more severe immersion busters, in my opinion.

Every obvious restriction is a kick in the teeth.

But why is everyone having some fix idea about Fallout being all about dialogues.

Playing Oblivion makes you realise how bad a dialogue system can get, and I guess Fallout is somehow on the other end of that scale. Not sure what to compare Fallout's dialogue system to, I mean -- which game has the best speech?

Floaters had 3 short sentences that they keept saying over and over again.

You'd rather be able to approach them peacefully, and then have a meaningful chat? Dialogues man, that's between two instances. Oblivion hardly has any dialogues, as my character has no real choice of what to say. All in all, one could say that Oblivion is like a world filled with floaters, but instead of 3 short sentences they have 500 long, but equally pointless stories to spit at you.

SNIP And even that was a huge illusion SNIP

There was the intelligence impact as well. Variables, I mean, that's good enough.

Yea they are similar but you wont find a game that has brotherhood of steel and pipboy and brahmins and special system and stimpaks and some actuall fallout towns and so on.

Special system -- sure. The rest are just names, what impact do they have?

[Haris]

Special system -- sure. The rest are just names, what impact do they have?

Its not just names. They can look the same, they have story behind them, they bring back memories. A simple sound effect can bring that warm feeling back that you had from playing fallout 1 and 2.

[4too]

Narrative Momentum




Haris:

... if you read the scripts you realise that you never need more than 90% in speach and 75% of times its used it doesnt even check how much you have but it rather just checks if its taged. And even than its not used that much. They where just good at making an illusion that speach mathers alot. But it really doesnt except for like 15-20 npcs. ...

Whether intentional or by happy accident the design parts of FO metamorphosed into a narrative whole. There was a cinematic impact, by the end fade out and list of consequences, that motion pictures or TV would find hard to emulate.

The contribution of Speech and dialogue far out weighs the single threads that wove the quests into a plotting of the player's CHOSEN path.

The market pressures in the game entertainment industry might allow ''lip service''
to the importance of dialogue in problem solving in computer gaming. The actual success of including social verbal interaction in conflict resolution appears limited to too few titles.

If the FO formula was simple math, we would see more emulating the story telling to ''sell'' the action in shooters. Since the calculus appears to have some arcane variables, the accelerated momentum of the mix of cut scenes, combat, map exploration, dialogue, quest tree, and Dogmeat is slippier to grasp than quantum theory at 8 a.m. with a 16 beer hang over.

Until a dissection can itemize all the parts, and the impact of all the parts, an intelligent course would be to include every detail.

In the ruthless realities of the entertainment software industry, the Speech element might fade to filler or titillating pillow talk. There may be no life experience that the dev's can draw on in fabricating street smart diplomacy. The same skills that lead dev's to game design may not emphasize story telling or successful reinforcement of verbal skills. The narrative line ends up dumped into cut scenes and inserted between mini games and dungeon levels. The climax, becomes the last station on a single track rail road. The end, not even a train wreck, or car crash, defaults to a kick and roll delivery of the player character's last Fed Ex quest.


The 'limited' content of Speech made an elegant contribution to the whole FO saga. Haris is correct in using the term ''illusion'', that's the power of effective story telling. Speech becomes a 'grand illusion' in the memory of the FO experience.





4too

[VasikkA]

neither of these methods are "instant" -- they take time and they ( should ) see a fair bit of action.

Hopefully not more action than the occasional "Pirates have boarded the ship what do U do?!?!?" By instant I mean real time(as in real life, you know?), not game time.

How you can stand for portals is beyond me.

Just call them moongates and it's fine by me.

Well, I like the world map. I'd even enjoy traveling to unmarked locations with a single click, like you would in the Fallouts and say Arcanum

You're talking about games where the world map is the only way to move from point A to point B at the risk of running into enemies. In Oblivion, you move instantly from point A to point B, including every little cave, game time being the only penalty(which it isn't). All that you need for an insta-jump is knowledge of the location, or a 'rumour'.

But since time has no impact on anything, and encounters are swiftly avoided when map jumping, a problem is forged -- lack of penalty. Map jumping across the whole gameworld without feeling worn out makes the universe seem fairly small, and it does indeed cripple balance and immersion.

Amen.

I find the daily rhythm of the shopkeepers rather annoying, and yeah, the NPCs are there only for you.

That's contradiction, isn't it? They're there only for you, but they're never there for you? Eh? EH? Oh well... I wouldn't mind if they went to sleep or ate during lunchtime, if there was some painless way to pass a few hours, at say, the click of a button.

You misunderstood my point. With the shopkeepers I meant their absence from doing business, which forced me to wait until the morning. The sentence was loaded with irony regarding the otherwise crappy AI. Never mind.

What I meant with NPCs being there only for you is that they don't give you an impression of having their own agendas as Bethesda advertised their Radiant AI, but rather being the usual scripted morons that wander the streets of every CRPG.

The people "fade away" and clones spawn on another level. That's pretty disconnected.

I can't deny that. Indoors and outdoors are physically disconnected, but some factors are taken into consideration like the distance to the nearest guard outside and you being able to follow an NPC through several areas. So, like I said; not completely disconnected.

Game design: let's have high resolution textures at the expense of level size > load every two steps > crippling gameplay. That's a game design flaw, if I ever seen one. Don't accept that kind of shit man, you're the consumer, you call the shots.

On a closer thought, you're right. I'd also rather have lower resolution textures if that guarantees smooth transition between indoor and outdoor areas, but on the other hand, I was only guessing that this was a performance issue. The limitations of XBOX360 might also be the culprit.

This sort of problem exists pretty much in every game that allows free movement.

Not really. It's not the restriction that's the problem, it's how you restrict.

Subtility is the key.

Restriction is a problem. And yes, subtlety is the key.

The most common solutions to deal with this problem in games are: invisible walls GRAWL

That's not a goddamn solution!

Those were merely examples of the most common types of boundaries that exist in modern games.

Do you really think invisible walls are a bigger problem than the completely illogical restrictions that are situated within the gameworld, not outside it. I don't travel to the far reaches of the world map just to see if I can jump off the edge or to be stopped by an invisible wall when there's a lot more "You need to find the proper key to open this 2 inch thick wooden door" -crap in the game.

[Burnov]

My point was that it contradicts the concept of roleplaying, where character stats play major role in determining if an action is successful or not. The problem with trying to please everyone is that one or both alternatives usually suffer from this compromise.

No, because in a realtime setting, using stats to determine an outcome when it's obvious that the realtime interface is normally the determining factor is fucking stupid.

Again, my example using deus ex stands. If I was forced by someone saying I absolutely had to play fallout 3, I would rather have an interpretation of statistics integrated into the realtime interface instead of the horrendously stupid and irrelevant methods used in games like deus ex, and for example, starwars galaxies.

If you shot at someone with a ranged weapon in starwars galaxies the success of the shot was determined BEFORE the projectile even left the weapon, and even if they moved around an obstacle to avoid the slower traveling projectile, the projectile still hit them, and do you know what?

That's fucking queer. Anyone who likes that idea is fucking queer

The best we can hope for is again, some kind of good realtime interpretation of fallout stats so they blend into the game and not feel like you're rolling fucking dice before doing things you know you can already do. The whole reason why there is a statistical dependence in turn based rpgs is because everything is done in sequence.

Do you honestly want to walk up to someone in a first person view and swing a weapon and see the weapon is clearly within hitting distance, and lo and behold parts of the weapon model, perhaps even your ARM, clip the enemy's 3d model. Yet the stats say "OH NO, YOU DIDN'T ROLL A 5 YOU MISS!"... no because that's really really colon blazingly gay.

The realtime nature of this upcoming fallout game precludes stats augmenting personal abilities. Now yes, you could rightfully complain that this game should NEVER HAVE BEEN MADE THIS WAY IN THE FIRST PLACE, and you'd be right. However lobbying the game to play like some kind of pseudo realtime stat dictated Deus Ex knockoff is just beyond stupid. If the game is going to be made in this genre, they might as well make it fun to play.

I can understand people not getting over the fact that fallout and this genre of game should never have been mixed, but the only people I could see getting upset with using a conversion of traditional RPG stats into real-world abilities are the ones who lack the necessary personal abilities to offset the reduced dependency on stats.

[VasikkA]

However lobbying the game to play like some kind of pseudo realtime stat dictated Deus Ex knockoff is just beyond stupid. If the game is going to be made in this genre, they might as well make it fun to play.

First of all, where the hell have I stated Fallout 3 should be first person and real-time? Read my first post again, especially the part about combat. Just to help you, I'll copy/paste the crucial parts.

Let me put is simply: The combat in Fallout 3 can not be first-person and real-time if it's based on SPECIAL.

If you decide to use such a system, that's fine, but don't call it an RPG.

Secondly, I've used Deus Ex and Bloodlines in numerous posts as prime examples of showing how RPG rules in real-time combat simply doesn't work. Just give a holler, and I'll dig them up for you.

That's fucking queer. Anyone who likes that idea is fucking queer

Making Fallout 3 an action game is fucking queer.