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Mismatch
Hero of the Glowing Lands
Hero of the Glowing Lands


Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 2160
Location: Over yonder hill

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:55 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

the usual way quests and such are done when trying to give a coice between good and evil is to allow a fork in the road on most quests. This fork usually is rather obvious, with the 'good' alternative being a tad hader and yielding more exp. I dunno why, mebbe its the starwars films fault since they always say that the dark side is faster & easier, so good actions are harder and gives more exp....
This bothers me a tad, since it usually forces one to take a specific action. (In FO2, for example, I find meself wanting to blow up the powerplant in gecko, but dont, since doing the right thing gives more exp AND yields a few more extra quests.)
I'd like to see a more developed fauna of 'evil' quests with rather equal exp awards as the good ones, and with more resulting quests.
Playing it bad too often means less exp.
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Kahgan
Vault Elite
Vault Elite


Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 393
Location: Rygjarfylkir

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:13 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^excactly^ to play fallout2 as a bad character means you have to erase every town to weigh up for the experience points you loose from not taking the good quests...and wiping out towns are..boring, cause junkies have so damned many action points...
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Mr. Teatime
Righteous Subjugator
Righteous Subjugator


Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 3340

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:20 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I'd rather the game didn't see things in terms of good and bad, merely a reflection of the character you want to play. So if you do categorise it, it would be sort of good, kind of good, pretty good, reasonably good, horrible, very horrible, OK if you have this political viewpoint, etc... ie, shades of grey. The tricky bit is making sure that each choice is as rewarding, in terms of EXP at the very least. Coming from a fantasy background where good and bad are very defined, I'm not sure how much faith I have in Bethsoft in being able to do this, though at least they don't come from 'choose your alignment' D&D.
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Kashluk
Grand MF
Grand MF


Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7497

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 9:54 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Yeah, I'm all for Teatime's suggestion. I think Planescape had this thing covered much better than Fallout, although it was far from perfect as well.
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Blargh
‹berkommando
‹berkommando


Joined: 09 Nov 2003
Posts: 6316

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:24 am Reply with quoteBack to top

A dynamic, constantly changing alignment based upon arbitrary interpretation of actions, with no room for potential moral ambiguity ? No thank you.

'YOU KILLED THAT KIND, DECENT, WELL THOUGHT OF MAN, CHAOTIC EVIL FOR YOU !!'
'But, he was actually a doppleganger and a serial killer, I have pro -'
'YOU ARE NOW DECREED MENTALLY ILL. TO THE ASYLUM WITH YOU, VAGRANT !'

et al. Never mind that the man in question may well have been someone abhorrent, as your alignment, reputation and in the end game path(s) are determined by a rigid system with no concern for alternative views.

While Planescape : Torment was an enjoyable game, I didn't think much of the alignment system. While it was better than any other D&D game I have played (IWD, BG etc), due to non static alignments, I believe it handled relevant decisions poorly. Any action that had moral repercussions could be seen in many different ways, from a motivational angle. Hence, static +/- are inappropriate and quite clumsy in my opinion.

I'd rather a system that offers no blatantly discernable player 'alignment' as it were. In this, your morality should be drawn from the perspectives of others, via your actions et al ; not a line of text summarising your alter ego's entire personality and outlook. You're 'evil' because you actively enjoy hunting, torturing and eventually consuming children while they're still (barely) alive, because you have a sociopathic hatred of the colour green and you kill anyone who wears it, because you believe yourself to be an 'eccentric' artist, searching for new (human) canvases. You're 'neutral' because you don't fucking care about such 'petty concerns', or do, but don't care enough to take a stand and (possibly) make a difference, because you're more concerned with every-day survival than the 'greater good'. You're 'good' because you value others more than yourself, consequently sacrificing of yourself on many levels for the benefit of others etc. As it is, it's as meaningless as it gets.

Mathematics and karma do not mix. icon_drunk
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Mr. Teatime
Righteous Subjugator
Righteous Subjugator


Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 3340

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:55 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Indeed. I've been petitioning for the removal of the karma system from Fallout for the same reason - who knows what's good and bad, exactly? Make it a reputation system with various factions, instead.
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Wolfman Walt
Mamma's Gang member
Mamma's Gang member


Joined: 15 Mar 2003
Posts: 5171
Location: La Grange, Kentucky

PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:55 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Not really trying to argue here with what's been said because I agree that I don't like straight up black and white, but one reason I always thought that the "good & bad" options were so obvious was cause of the origin of the setting, 1950's sci-fi movies. If I remember correctly, back then in movies there were three types of people: Good, Bad, and idiots who got killed right away. Oh and no black people. So while I pretty much agree with the whole "Theres no such thing as evil, just differant viewpoints" but on the other hand the original design purpose kinda feels maybe we're over-complicating it. However, since I'm betting FO3 will be screwed up anyways, who cares?
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Kashluk
Grand MF
Grand MF


Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7497

PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:58 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I feel like that poor sap in your avatar, bedazzled and being pointed in the head with a revolver.
-pang-
I guess the black & white reasoning makes some sense after all.
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Blargh
‹berkommando
‹berkommando


Joined: 09 Nov 2003
Posts: 6316

PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:07 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Wolfman Walt wrote:
However, since I'm betting FO3 will be screwed up anyways, who cares?


Succinct and accurate. Well said. icon_drunk
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Cimmerian Nights
Striding Hero
Striding Hero


Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 1367
Location: The Roche Motel

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:58 am Reply with quoteBack to top

It's way easier to play the altruistic type in these games because they don't recognise your motives. When you chose to do the "good quest" do you really give a shit about helping that person or do you just want the XP and gold reward?

PS:T was really innovative, in that at some points you could give the "good" response, the "evil" response, and also the lying "good" response and the lying "evil" response (if memory serves). I think this is a way to incorporate different shades of grey.
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Mr. Teatime
Righteous Subjugator
Righteous Subjugator


Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 3340

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:00 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I also liked the way in PS:T, the longest, most complex looking response wasn't always the one to get the most EXP or best items. Usually in games, the longer the response, the better the outcome, as long responses were a result of high INT. PS:T actually asked you to think about which response you chose, even if you were just hunting for the best items.

Another thing I'd like to see taken from PS:T is the interesting items. A lot of the items were unique and had a lot of character - FO2 had the lucky 8-ball, I think, and I'd like to see more serious, but no less unique, items in FO2. A brain in a jar that gives advice, or something, heh.
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Blargh
‹berkommando
‹berkommando


Joined: 09 Nov 2003
Posts: 6316

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:42 am Reply with quoteBack to top

In PST, being able to replace one's eye for example was a nice touch, I think. icon_drunk
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Cimmerian Nights
Striding Hero
Striding Hero


Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 1367
Location: The Roche Motel

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:18 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Unique items are nice, but what reallt set PS:T apart was the "interactivity" of those items. Take Dak'kon's Disc (bear with me, it's been a while and I was really baked when I played it) anyway it was so interactive in many different ways you'd #1 read it to get some backstory on his people #2 have to interpret an philosophize with him about it's meaning #3 get an EXP reward #4 get some nifty spells #5 upgrade his stats significantly. There's really no reason why this wouldn't float in the FO world.
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Kashluk
Grand MF
Grand MF


Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7497

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:01 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Yah, PS:T - guide us towards your light and shit-shat-zappa.

icon_drunk
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Mismatch
Hero of the Glowing Lands
Hero of the Glowing Lands


Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 2160
Location: Over yonder hill

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:13 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Kashluk wrote:
DING-DONG, DING-DONG, I AM THE GYPSY KING


indeed.
ps:t is the only game outside the FO universe bethesda should look to for inspiration.
But since bethsoft usually develops games in a fantasy setting I expect chit to be all black and white.
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popscythe
Elite Wanderer
Elite Wanderer


Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 692
Location: Silent Hill, Oregon

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:24 am Reply with quoteBack to top

*giggle* I just played through PS:T again and it's cool. I liked it a bunch due to some of those options, but a lot of the "good/bad" shit was D&D based. In D&D it's real important to everyone (most especially to Gods) what your alignment is "inside". D&D in all forms is pervaded with that feeling... It's what you do and why that's important, even if you don't get caught doing it. I always looked at fallout as the opposite... If nobody catches you stealing from everyone, you should still be able to get the "super deluxe hero savioromatic time" for the village that has not a single NPC with anything in their inventory but the damn store guy who you can't jack because it breaks the game balance. icon_mrhappy Fallout 3 should benifit from that idea, plus more ineractive realism. What if as you start gunning down villagers, you see Mr. Jagoff the mechanic jump atop his clunker and rally that shit towards the nearest town to get help? What if then the nearest town will infact help? Sending guards or supplies... Who knows? Depending on the towns and their relationships of course. I'd love to chase some fucker down and kill him before he can report to the big town next door (or the main base, or the overseer, or whatever the fuck fool I'm trying to screw without getting caught) or not, and have that action (or lack) FISSION MAILED me if I fuck it up.
Isn't that the kinda shit we all want to see in Fallout 3... and would really love to just be in a game that's exactly like Fallout 1 besides the 3 dvds worth of quests items and videos we all so badly need?
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Subhuman
Haha you're still not there yet
Haha you're still not there yet


Joined: 21 May 2002
Posts: 3447
Location: Denial

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:37 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Blargh wrote:
'YOU KILLED THAT KIND, DECENT, WELL THOUGHT OF MAN, CHAOTIC EVIL FOR YOU !!'
'But, he was actually a doppleganger and a serial killer, I have pro -'
'YOU ARE NOW DECREED MENTALLY ILL. TO THE ASYLUM WITH YOU, VAGRANT !'


This sounds like Baldur's Gate. What I appreciate about Fallout is that you can basically do whatevever the hell you want and not get overly penalized for it. Yes, NPCs might react negatively to you, but who cares? At least you won't be attacked on sight by a bunch of armed guards.
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St. Toxic
Haha you're still not there yet
Haha you're still not there yet


Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 3379
Location: One-man religion.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I think being evil should grant the most exp and easiest quests, while fucking your reputation completely, and putting you on more and more peoples' "To Kill" list. So for an easy boost at the beginning, go ahead, be a sack of shit, but dont think people forgive and forget.

Doing bad shit, even out of sight, should have some sort of karma impact, at least a little. Also, stealthing your evil deeds shouldn't work everywhere. Being the one stranger in some town should leave you blamed for any theft and murder you commit, even out of sight, and possibly even things you didn't commit, but happened during your stay. They dont have to point and cry, but people talk, and rumours should surface. Soon enough, walking into that local bar could mean the end of your adventure. That'd be pretty fun.

"Smart talk", long INT responses and helpful advice should not give you bags of exp all the time. People arent smart but they're tough, its a fucking wasteland, and here you come in and go "Gee I can solve all your problems by a press of a button". Man, piss off, we'll solve our own damn problems. No one likes a meddling 'vault city snob', right?

As for items, I'd like some more upgrades for the pip boy scattered around. icon_drunk


Last edited by St. Toxic on Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Wolfman Walt
Mamma's Gang member
Mamma's Gang member


Joined: 15 Mar 2003
Posts: 5171
Location: La Grange, Kentucky

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:21 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I say the main character should be black. This will eliminate every problem because every NPC will automatically hate you and assume you've stolen, murdered, raped, whatever else bad happens in town, out of town, world-wide and if something good happens, well that was just a stroke of good luck or a sign from god. Moral debate problem solved.

To counter balance this however, there should be certain items that have a pop-eye-esque affect on your character. Like Watermelon, chicken, and forties.
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St. Toxic
Haha you're still not there yet
Haha you're still not there yet


Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 3379
Location: One-man religion.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:59 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Or make everyone else black. It should work both ways, aye? icon_drunk
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