How many firearms are enuff for FOT ?

[OnTheBounce]

IIRC, FOT occurs right after FO1 and takes place before FO2. In that 40 year period between FO1 & FO2 anything could happen.

Exhibit A:

desc_pulsePistol = {The YK32 is an Electromagnetic pulse weapon that was developed by the Yuma Flats Energy Consortium. Though powerful, the YK32 was never considered a practical weapon due to its inefficient energy usage and bulky design.}

Exhibit B:

desc_pulseRifle = {The YK42B is an electromagnetic pulse weapon that was developed by the Yuma Flats Energy Consortium. It is considered a far superior weapon to the YK32 pistol, having a greater charge capacity and range.}

These are the descriptions from the items.txt and emphasis is -- of course -- mine. Yuma Flats is in Arizona and is a modern-day proving ground for the US military and has been for a long time. Note that these descriptions don't mention a thing about the Reavers inventing them. Why? Because MF fucked up. Not only are they straight energy-based weapons rather than doing EMP damage, they stuck an inconsistant weapon in the game.

BTW, FoT takes place 40 years after FO and 40 years before FO2. There is an 80 year spread between FO and FO2.

Also in FOT, the Bos knew there was a Pulse Rifle. But they needed a prototype so so they could duplicate the weapon faster and easier, hence they need you to reclaim it.

The Reavers have supposedly offered them a prototype which they supposedly invented in exchange for saving their Elders in Newton. The BoS isn't "reclaiming" it since they never possesed it before the Reavers gave it to them.

Regarding your sample character, he/she wouldn't "own" much of anything. With a IN of 6 you'd be hard pressed to get two tag skills up to acceptable levels by 6th when I'm talking about releasing e-weapons, especially since an Energy Weapons tag starts off lower than a Small Guns tag does. Then, when you factor in the ammo issue I was talking about that character would be no more or less inclined to "ownage" than any other character.

i can easily make such a char and if i had the Laser Pistol early, i can wreak huge havoc with it due to its inherent long range. And i can even handle some of the bigger guns too like the Vindicator.

Yes, you can make such a character, but you won't have any sort of real advantage w/a Laser Pistol. You're forgetting that the "inherent long range" of the Laser Pistol is a whopping 35, which is 5 shorter than a Hunting Rifle, not to mention that the range class is "short" rather than "long" like the Hunting Rifle, and therefore range penalties pile up much more quickly with the former than the latter. Then factor in that you can actually do more damage -- although at somewhat shorter range -- with a .44 Mag. Revolver using JHP ammo (remember than ammo options don't exist w/e-weapons) and you can see that there is no clear advantage to using a Laser Pistol. It's simply a viable choice, not the be all, end all of FoT weaponry.

There are also some other things that we're probably not seeing eye-to-eye on. For instance, I'm operating on the assumption that most enemies in FoT were under-powered compared to the PCs. Take Macomb, for example, where your character are 4th level, yet the vast majority of the enemies are 1st level Raiders who can't hit the broad side of a barn if you painted a bright, flashing target on it for them. That's one of the things that needs to be changed. All-in-all, balance was badly implemented in FoT, weapons are just one issue at stake. Also, I'm not really referring to the core campaign. Mainly because I don't give a shit about it. I've learned what I could from it and work on my own material, so my posts shouldn't be read as being superimposed on the core campaign.

OTB

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I was suggesting that the armour be adjusted slightly to compensate. The 4th battery is too difficult to get, once you realise how to go about it. : )

its easy if you know how..............;)
have u tried giving all 3 surface turrets 4 afterburns each ??? :D

then slowly kill those inside for 5K Fusion cells and sell themm or keep them...no worries of running out of fusion cells and more money for PA !!!!

Sorry typo, should read 'isn't too difficult'. I've never had a problem with Preoria, well not since the first time I played. I don't agree with giving the turrets drugs, that's a oversight that should have been fixed. I don't mind destroying the turrets by pouring alcohol or nuka cola over them, after all I've ruined enough keyboards that way *sigh* : ( but they should be immune to drugs. Not that there's enough liquids available before Preoria to destroy all the turrets.

Actually the turrets are a good example of how a laser pistol wouldn't overpower the game as it stands, I usually take Target in my squad before Preoria as there are plenty of grenades to be had plus he's handy with a shotgun, but since I knew I'm going up against turrets I used to load up on all the AP ammo I can get and didn't bother with buying him any armour. Never had a turret taken him out in one shot.

Since I never bother with the Gattling laser I've never runout of Fusion cells yet so I've stopped bothering to kill the turrets. I just move past them and only take the fusion cells from the one that's already destroyed. I don't gamble and never sell ammo unless I'm definately not going to use a certain weapon again, but I've never found myself short of money in the latter part of the game. I've always been able to equip all of my team, those who can wear it that is, with PA.

[Ripper]

IIRC, there is no PA requirements at all. So anyone can except muties and ghouls can wear one.

another thing is, i love Gatling guns, they are cool IMHO ;) and a very integral part of the story line, although i hardly see muties toting 1 in FOT.

and my wrong about the FOT timeline.........*sigh*

now shit has hit the fan and Titus does not wants Interplay now. (oops off topic)

BTW the Pulse Rifle does EMP damage which arent suppose to hurt living creature but then how come they are doing highly damaging Electric damage.

As for the character lvls, i cant be bothered. I can give a raider 200% to Small arms at lvl 1. Also if all the enemies can hit you all the time, i wager the BOS squad would be decimated in no time.

afterall, they are supposed to be untrained....while BOS soldiers are called trained monkeys....

[Ripper]

Actually the turrets are a good example of how a laser pistol wouldn't overpower the game as it stands, I usually take Target in my squad before Preoria as there are plenty of grenades to be had plus he's handy with a shotgun, but since I knew I'm going up against turrets I used to load up on all the AP ammo I can get and didn't bother with buying him any armour. Never had a turret taken him out in one shot.

if you play insane mode, every enemy shot is almost a Critical hit. And seeing a Turret critically hit farsight for 90 points of damage by bypassing her defences 10 times in the row is not funny. anyway how, the turrets are almost blind anyway on normal and if you get hit, it means something is wrong.

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

IIRC, there is no PA requirements at all. So anyone can except muties and ghouls can wear one.

Ghouls can wear PA and Environmental Armour, Super Mutants and Deathclaws can't. Which is what I was refering to in my post, not having a squad full of humans and ghouls.

Edited

As for the character lvls, i cant be bothered. I can give a raider 200% to Small arms at lvl 1. Also if all the enemies can hit you all the time, i wager the BOS squad would be decimated in no time.

Much easier to just alter the raiders levels in the map, the editor will work out all their hitpoints/skillpoints for you. : )

I've never bother playing through on insane, once I had finished the game I became more interested in making my own maps. All my points have been refering to the normal difficulty level as this is the default.

Oh by the way the char stats you posted, how did you get them? If you take bruiser you get 2 extra points to strength so you seem to be missing a character point somewhere.

[OnTheBounce]

I don't agree with giving the turrets drugs, that's a oversight that should have been fixed.

I agree. I tested this on a range map once to make sure that it could actually done and wasn't some urban legend, but I've never played an actual game where I did that.

Actually the turrets are a good example of how a laser pistol wouldn't overpower the game as it stands, I usually take Target in my squad before Preoria as there are plenty of grenades to be had plus he's handy with a shotgun, but since I knew I'm going up against turrets I used to load up on all the AP ammo I can get and didn't bother with buying him any armour. Never had a turret taken him out in one shot.

I guess I'm the only one left that takes Barnaky's advice that you don't always have to fight. Yes, my favored solution is to switch the turrets off for no more than 10 seconds at a time and dash like mad to the closest thing resembling a safe haven...

Since I never bother with the Gattling laser I've never runout of Fusion cells yet so I've stopped bothering to kill the turrets...I don't gamble and never sell ammo unless I'm definately not going to use a certain weapon again...

There's so much ammo in the core campaign that I don't think ammo conservation is an issue even worth talking about. The only ammo type I've had problems with is .30-06 which is pretty damned scarce when it's still useful. Other than that...well, there's just too many enemies w/2,000 or so rounds of ammo waiting for you to take it from their cold, dead hands. I say this even though I favor having Jax equipped w/a Laser Gatling Gun late in the game, plus I often have Toni toting one as well. Other than that 5.56mm is scarce enough early in the game that I reserve it for missions and switch back to something using the generic 7.62mm rounds when traveling. Then, by the time it's plentiful it isn't very useful.

and my wrong about the FOT timeline.........*sigh*

No biggie. Really

now shit has hit the fan and Titus does not wants Interplay now. (oops off topic)

You'll find that DaC isn't exactly filled w/"topic nazis".

BTW the Pulse Rifle does EMP damage which arent suppose to hurt living creature but then how come they are doing highly damaging Electric damage.

That's a good question. I'm not sure about the exact mechanics that the RPGs use for this, but I would assume that EMP weapons like Pulse Grenades give off a weak EMP that only damages electronics, while weapons like the Pulse Rifle uses as powerful, electrical-based "projectile" to damage its target. I suppose it would be the difference between getting "zapped" by static electricity and sticking your finger in a wall socket.

As for the character lvls, i cant be bothered. I can give a raider 200% to Small arms at lvl 1. Also if all the enemies can hit you all the time, i wager the BOS squad would be decimated in no time.

afterall, they are supposed to be untrained....while BOS soldiers are called trained monkeys....

RfaSF is right on when he replied to this as I was refering to using the "level" field in the Level Editor. My solution is to offer players enemies that are closer to their own level. Standard for my work is one level below the PCs' own level, so if we're talking about an 8th level squad, the enemies are generally 7th level, with a sprinkling of 6th levels in certain areas. Minor enemy leaders are the same level, and major enemy leaders are at least one level higher than the PCs.

Regarding training, yes, the Raiders aren't part of an institution that trains its members. (In fact, they're not part of a formal institution at all.) However, if you're not satisfied with a game mechanics solution, you can always rationalize the tougher enemies as the "cream of the crop", that is, the ones that survived because they excelled, and that these chaps have risen to give organizations like the BoS heartburn. [Enter the PCs.]

OTB

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I guess I'm the only one left that takes Barnaky's advice that you don't always have to fight. Yes, my favored solution is to switch the turrets off for no more than 10 seconds at a time and dash like mad to the closest thing resembling a safe haven...

Yeah I play that way now. The operative word in my post was 'used' : ) when I first played I had to kill everything search every container/dead body etc then I wised up and started to act my age. : )

There's so much ammo in the core campaign that I don't think ammo conservation is an issue even worth talking about. The only ammo type I've had problems with is .30-06 which is pretty damned scarce when it's still useful. Other than that...well, there's just too many enemies w/2,000 or so rounds of ammo waiting for you to take it from their cold, dead hands. I say this even though I favor having Jax equipped w/a Laser Gatling Gun late in the game, plus I often have Toni toting one as well. Other than that 5.56mm is scarce enough early in the game that I reserve it for missions and switch back to something using the generic 7.62mm rounds when traveling. Then, by the time it's plentiful it isn't very useful.

Way too much ammo for a post apoc. game but that's a whole topic in it's self. I just don't see the point of selling ammo when there's plenty of money to be had anyway. I think the last time I played through I only spent my money on was medical supplies and armour.

RfaSF is right on when he replied to this as I was refering to using the "level" field in the Level Editor. My solution is to offer players enemies that are closer to their own level. Standard for my work is one level below the PCs' own level, so if we're talking about an 8th level squad, the enemies are generally 7th level, with a sprinkling of 6th levels in certain areas. Minor enemy leaders are the same level, and major enemy leaders are at least one level higher than the PCs.

Regarding training, yes, the Raiders aren't part of an institution that trains its members. (In fact, they're not part of a formal institution at all.) However, if you're not satisfied with a game mechanics solution, you can always rationalize the tougher enemies as the "cream of the crop", that is, the ones that survived because they excelled, and that these chaps have risen to give organizations like the BoS heartburn. [Enter the PCs.]

OTB

Hmm training vs experience, I always regarded my character to have had a sheltered life growing up in the BOS, plenty of training but no practical experience. Where as the raiders have had to fight every day for their survival no formal training but heaps of practical experience.

[Ripper]

another silly things is if Ghouls can wear PA or Enviro armour, how come there is still the utterly irritating Glowing one on Dillion ! Enviro and PA are suppose to keep those rads in/out.





and reply to earlier, its possible to get what i call the best of both worlds.

S = 8
P = 10
E = 6
C = 2-3
I = 6
A = 10
L = 6

with Gifted and Bruiser.

1st leave everything at base 5 for everything. Then put Gifted 1st. Notice you have 6 Str and then add Bruiser to get 8 Str. You should still have 5 stats points untouched.

Leave Endurance, LUck and Intelligence alone. Push Charisma down to 2 and put those points into PE to get 10. The unused stats points goes to Ag and you should still have 1 point left FREE !!!!!!!! Personally, i put the last point into CH so i can get 2% barter instead of -2%.

More heavy combat ones can make due with 9 str to wield the massive M2 and more stuff. More Sniper Oriented ones can have more luck for Crit hits. Those who hate 12 skill points can spend the last point into IN to get 14. Those who like more HP can push up EN to 7.


with this fellow, i can do more. In the sense, i can snipe well abielt less Criticals but aimshots offsets this, hold my own in CQB and even heavy fire support. Its wonderous to see what a M2 Gunner can do with 10 PE !!!!!!

In addition i can swap Bruiser for some other traits once i get PA and i will have lots of AP !!!!

:twisted:

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

another silly things is if Ghouls can wear PA or Enviro armour, how come there is still the utterly irritating Glowing one on Dillion ! Enviro and PA are suppose to keep those rads in/out.

I guess that they're the radiation equivilent of gortex. Designed to stop radioactive particles passing through one way but not the other : )

and reply to earlier, its possible to get what i call the best of both worlds.

S = 8
P = 10
E = 6
C = 2-3
I = 6
A = 10
L = 6

with Gifted and Bruiser.

Well we each have our own preference for character stats, depends on whether you're role playing a character or just making one that has the best tactical advantages. Personally unless I'm creating a melee character, which IMHO is not worth it in FOT, I don't bother taking my strength past 5, I prefer to make weaker more intelligent characters. There are plenty of recruits who can excell in big guns, plus with PA and the right perks you can handle any weapon you want. Charisma also affects your promotion chances, along with your reputation, so as well as improving your barter skills you get access to more and better recruits. Remember this is a squad based game, not a solo adventure/frag fest, and your character is a squad leader not a one man army.

[Viktor]

I'm not talking about making them available at every corner store. What I'm talking about is letting the player get his hands on a Laser Pistol at 6th or 7th level -- along w/a limited supply of ammo -- when the thing is actually some good to him.
OTB

A laser pistol in the hands of a "Fast Shot" with decent Energy Weapons(60-70%) skills and 6 + PE gives you a very useful "CQB Specialist" for clearing rooms. Which would be very handy for us CTB fans who have to use a "shoot what you can through the door and windows before rushing in" tactic to clear well defended rooms with minimum losses!

As it is, I get a S&W M29 full of JHP just for room clearing opearions as early as possible!

I've said it before, but IMO, the M-79 is the most mis-timed weapon in the game! By the time you're picking them up off dead Reavers, you should have at least 2 NPCs with high ST (not hard as you have PA by this point...) and 100% Throwing. This would have been a real NPC lifesaver earlier on when your squad had one have decent Grenadier and the rest of the NPCs are 70%-ish small guns "riflemen" and some additional indirect fire capability to deal with well protected enemies would have stopped a lot of "attack-die-reload"!

[Ripper]

Well we each have our own preference for character stats, depends on whether you're role playing a character or just making one that has the best tactical advantages. Personally unless I'm creating a melee character, which IMHO is not worth it in FOT, I don't bother taking my strength past 5, I prefer to make weaker more intelligent characters. There are plenty of recruits who can excell in big guns, plus with PA and the right perks you can handle any weapon you want. Charisma also affects your promotion chances, along with your reputation, so as well as improving your barter skills you get access to more and better recruits. Remember this is a squad based game, not a solo adventure/frag fest, and your character is a squad leader not a one man army.

well, i can alway leave the bartering to someone else. Promotions are only great for grabbing uber recruits but i dont really bother. if i play my cards right, i should be able to hit Paladin Commander and above with this dude. And one more thing, my fella with only 2 CH can still hit a Defender rating after 5 missions which will allow me to see the bonus ending. I never like leaders anyway and i would prefer all my guys to be my equal. Ranks dont bother me too much and besides using crappy recruits is more fun than those higher rank uber recruits. Equipment is always mission based thus no need for high rank here.

High rank is only needed for uber recruits.
A Defender reputation is all i need to get a good karma ending.

[OnTheBounce]

Equipment is always mission based thus no need for high rank here.

That is probably one of the worst things that they could have left unfinished...and yet they did. Notice that the Entity files contain a field "Rank Requirement". Unfortunately, entering anything here -- just like setting a trap to the "Deadboy"* type -- is a waste of time and mouse clicks/keystrokes. Without that little feature Rank lost a lot of its teeth...

OTB

*The "Deadboy" type of trap was intended as an item that would explode and do a huge amount of damage to anyone/thing caught in its area of effect if the character holding the trap was killed.

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

well, i can alway leave the bartering to someone else. Promotions are only great for grabbing uber recruits but i dont really bother. if i play my cards right, i should be able to hit Paladin Commander and above with this dude. And one more thing, my fella with only 2 CH can still hit a Defender rating after 5 missions which will allow me to see the bonus ending. I never like leaders anyway and i would prefer all my guys to be my equal. Ranks dont bother me too much and besides using crappy recruits is more fun than those higher rank uber recruits. Equipment is always mission based thus no need for high rank here.

High rank is only needed for uber recruits.
A Defender reputation is all i need to get a good karma ending.

As I said it's down to personal preference, I've tried playing with several character types, one with similar stats to yours but different traits, and I've found a more average (but more intelligent and charismatic character) suits my playing style more. I also think that the leader perk is one of the handiest to take.

If you keep the same recruits throughout the game they'll be equal to any of the higher ranked recruits available later (same is true of the npc's in virtually all rpgs) except that you can leave some skills understrength and then get a recruit who specialises in them when you need one. If you have the choice that is.

[Mihail]

Personally i find there are too many SMGS and pistols.

I prefer 3 of each type.

The M249 is plain annoying since its 7.62mm and i had to change it to 5.56 X 45mm.

Certain glitches in the guns & ammo too. For example AK47s use the 7.62 X 39 mm round, so how can this round be compaitable with the M60 ?

And FOT takes place in the USA, there should be more M16s than AK47s, this is definitely unforgivable. :mad:

I must correct you man, there are more productions of the ak-47 then the m-16 and the ak-47 is more widely used fire-arm of any weapon in the world right now, the m-16 is not really sold off like the ak-47, the civilian version of the m-16 is called the bushmaster, but even that, is not too popular, the problem is that the m-16 even the newer verison like the m-16a2 or the Car-15 are pretty shitty, becouse of the reliability of it, it tends to jam, thus not making it a chosen weapon for people who are knee high in dirt and dust and shit heh

[axelgreese]

I must correct you man, there are more productions of the ak-47 then the m-16 and the ak-47 is more widely used fire-arm of any weapon in the world right now, the m-16 is not really sold off like the ak-47, the civilian version of the m-16 is called the bushmaster, but even that, is not too popular, the problem is that the m-16 even the newer verison like the m-16a2 or the Car-15 are pretty shitty, becouse of the reliability of it, it tends to jam, thus not making it a chosen weapon for people who are knee high in dirt and dust and shit heh

Post diggas ahoy!! ... Die.

becouse of the reliability of it, it tends to jam, thus not making it a chosen weapon for people who are knee high in dirt and dust and shit heh

Was it Hammer that posted the link to the site disproving this myth?

[OnTheBounce]

Was it Hammer that posted the link to the site disproving this myth?

It certainly wasn't me, because that flies in the face of my own experience. (As opposed to those posters whose shooting experience comes from "pwnZ0ring" at CS.) I'd have to see the site, but I bet there are a list of qualifiers or the test was stacked against the AK family.

While I'll be the first to say that the AK's reliability has been overly hyped, as well as that the M16A2 is often unfairly maligned for the failures of its predecessors -- the A2 represented real improvements over the straight M16 and A1 configurations -- I'd still rather have a AKM in my hands than an M16A2 if I wasn't going to have the time/energy to sit down and clean the damned thing all of the time.

The problem w/the M16 family is that they don't shoot well w/o lubrication. Period. You have to lube them because the accuracy they are designed to shoot w/requires that they be manufactured to very tight tolerances. Unfortunately, if you lube something contaminants tend to stick to the lube, especially in very dusty conditions. This is why the M16A2 will invariably jam far more frequently than an AK since the looser tolerances of a weapon designed to equip the world's Proletarian revolutionaries (read: largely untrained peasants) make it far less finicky than its more sophisticated Western counterpart.

Of course, if you use some of the newer dry, teflon-based lubricants this advantage of the AK largely disappears. However, gov'ts are too damned cheap to buy them and so most soldiers are stuck w/cheaper liquid lubricants which attract dust.

OTB

[axelgreese]

I believe the link had something along the lines of the M16A1 got a bad rep because of the early model the m16e something or other, which had lubrication problems like the ones you describe and the m16a1 supposedly had the problems but much less so. It was an interesting link, I try and find it for you.

[OnTheBounce]

...[T]he M16A1 got a bad rep because of the early model the m16e something or other, which had lubrication problems like the ones you describe and the m16a1 supposedly had the problems but much less so.

That's certainly true. Also one of the problems that the US had w/the M16 when it debuted in Viet Nam was that they didn't have very much appropriate cleaning equipment in theatre. Since the M16 wasn't .30 caliber weapon like the M14 rifle or M60 GPMG it was very hard for troops to improvise. A lot of the reliability problems went away once proper cleaning kits were introduced.

There was also a problem w/the original M16 in that the flash suppressor consisted essentially of fingers w/o a ring at the end. It was very easy to get your weapon caught on branches, or to have foliage trailing along from your weapon.

The M16A1 was a definite improvement and the A2 represented still more improvements. However, they're all much more finicky when it comes to dirt and grime than the AK-family.

It was an interesting link, I try and find it for you.

Please do, I'd be interested to see it. :)

OTB

[axelgreese]

There was also a problem w/the original M16 in that the flash suppressor consisted essentially of fingers w/o a ring at the end. It was very easy to get your weapon caught on branches, or to have foliage trailing along from your weapon.

This was also mentioned... my search hasn't turned anything up yet though, might just have to pm Hammer...