The Burrows

TimCain · Post by **TimCain** » Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:52 pm

Now that you have read the Burrows design document, do you think it should have been left in FO? Removing this area was a bit controversial at the time, and not everyone thought it should be removed. I felt it was well-written, better even than some of the areas that eventually made it into the game, but that its style wasn't right for the game.

What do you think?

Tim.

Flamescreen · Post by **Flamescreen** » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:01 pm

Of course it should have been. The more the better, and if it is that good it's a pitty you don't see it in the end. Perhaps in a future FO a revised version could be included.

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:13 pm

I knid of liked that survivalist guy fighting against 'the Liberals' (I wonder if all these survivalist redneck types know the Liberal party is in power in Canada...). It might have been interesting for that character to have been an homage of sorts to The Postman. The book, not the movie.

I liked the Burrows mainly because the quests made the Glow a really important location all of a sudden. I know it's one of the best places in the game thanks to Zax and all the tapes, but the Burrows quests would have made it essential to fully explore it rather than just grabbing the tape from the dead paladin and going.

But the location did have a kind of fantasy feel. Probably best to leave it out. The whole thing, their names, the heirarchy, the division... Felt very much like a fantasy setting.

VasikkA · Post by **VasikkA** » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:42 pm

In fact, the Burrows area is still controversial. Although well-written and an interesting setting, it isn't very fallouty. First of all, talking raccoons. IMO, that doesn't fit in the game world nor it fits in the retrofuturistic feeling. Talking deathclaws were presented in Fallout 2 and just look at the amount of criticism it has gotten. A good choice to leave it out. I have nothing against mutated raccoons, but they shouldn't be 'too intelligent'.

As for the jungle, there are no forests in the wasteland, not to mention jungles...
I've kinda wondered where the trees have gone in Fallouts and I wouldn't mind a huge dead forest or sick and radiated pine trees as it seems spore plants were the only plants in Fallouts. Of course there were trees and grass in NCR/Vault City but that is too lush IMO. Back to the jungle, it's hard to imagine one in Southern California, where Fallout is set. An interesting setting, but it would be too different compared to other areas.

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 12:18 am

I basically agree with Vas on this. Talking racoons with elvish names wouldn't have been good for the setting at all. The idea is just way too silly. Chris Taylor told me about The Burrows right after Fallout Tactics was released, and pretty much everyone in the channel agreed that it was fantastic that it was dropped.

Oh, and Flamescreen is a moron. Quantity is NOT Quality.

However, if anything from the original design should be added, it would be the ability to get dipped and keep playing.

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:02 am

Tim, I realize this is off topic, but why did you decide to go with a 10mm "standard" instead of .45, which would seem like the more logical choice?

Rosh · Post by **Rosh** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:02 am

In addition to what I posted at NMA, I think this area would have presented a good place to use Outdoors/Speech/etc.

They could have been raised in intelligence, as would have been the DeathClaws (but still far from being capable of speech or most higher though). Just that...the raccoons wouldn't try to rip your face off. Communication through gesticulation would have been quite good.

Agreed that The Glow needed a bit more going on with it, as it was a MAJOR location in Fallout's history. The computer did seem to add a bit to it, but The Glow just didn't seem to have the play it should have for such an important location.

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:41 am

Overall, I'd say that I'm glad that a forested village full of talking racoons didn't make it into the game, but I am glad to know where the reference to racoons having escaped from The Glow came from. I think you made a good call in cutting it for stylistic purposes, regardless of how well-written it was.

As for The Glow itself, I have to agree w/Rosh in that it didn't seem to play a very large role. Perhaps this has a lot to do w/why people overlook so much of the background info there? (Well, that and they lack the skill/patience to read the holodisks... :mrgreen: )

(Hmmm...talking, bipedal racoons...where have I seen those before? Oh yes, Gamma World.)

OTB

Darwin_187 · Post by **Darwin_187** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:43 am

Doyle wrote:Tim, I realize this is off topic, but why did you decide to go with a 10mm "standard" instead of .45, which would seem like the more logical choice?

Actually, 10mm is becoming the new standard- it's an effective cross breed of the fast but light 9mm and the big but slow .45

The only real benefit of the .45 caliber round these days is that it is sub-sonic; hence it's easier to muffle the report with a silencer.

Oh, and saint: what's with all the hostillity?

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:50 am

Darwin_187 wrote:Actually, 10mm is becoming the new standard- it's an effective cross breed of the fast but light 9mm and the big but slow .45.

No, it's not, Darwin. The "lightened" version of 10mm, .40 S&W is becoming a widely accepted cartridge, but the 10mm itself seems destined for obscurity along w/a host of other panacea law enforcement cartridges like the .41 Magnum.

Darwin_187 wrote:The only real benefit of the .45 caliber is that it is sub-sonic- hence easier to muffle the report with a silencer.

And the fact that there's so much of it laying around that you'll be able to supply yourself from now 'til Doomsday. (And since this is Fallout, Doomsday's pretty important, eh?

)

Darwin_187 wrote:Oh, and saint: what's with all the hostillity?

My guess would be the munchkins on #blackisle are getting to him again.

("But how do I do this turn-based thing?")

OTB

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:58 am

Yes, but .45 was the standard round used by military and law-enforcement side-arms and SMGs during the '50s. That's why it would be the more logical choice, to me.

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 2:37 am

Doyle wrote:Yes, but .45 was the standard round used by military and law-enforcement side-arms and SMGs during the '50s. That's why it would be the more logical choice, to me.

How dare you forget .38 Special/.357 Magnum!!!

I think that the .38 Special should have been the bottom-rung caliber and .45 the step up. Perhaps w/.357 acting as special ammo that could be fired from some of the .38 Special-capable weapons.

Saint_Proverbius wrote:However, if anything from the original design should be added, it would be the ability to get dipped and keep playing.

Now that should have been included!

BTW, did he mention exactly how that would be handled? As in would you still be working in the original direction or would you be working for the Master after that?

OTB

TimCain · Post by **TimCain** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 2:48 am

Doyle wrote:Tim, I realize this is off topic, but why did you decide to go with a 10mm "standard" instead of .45, which would seem like the more logical choice?

Chris Taylor handled all the gun stuff. I really know very little about them. And you are talking to the man whose first rocket launcher in the game fired guards who ran to the target and then exploded. I wanted to replace them with poodles and make a secret weapon, but wiser heads prevailed.

Tim.

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 2:56 am

TimCain wrote:wiser heads prevailed.

We all lost out because of it, Tim.

Rosh · Post by **Rosh** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 3:17 am

TimCain wrote:but wiser heads prevailed.

Well, DAMN. There goes my hopes for the Poodle-O-Matic being a reality. I'm crushed...*sniff*

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 3:57 am

Let's try to keep focused on the topic, shall we?

Not every thread should be about showcasing your knowledge of modern firearms.

ChrisTaylor · Post by **ChrisTaylor** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 3:59 am

Ammo: I picked 10mm since it wasn't popular, had been tested by the FBI at one point (and found lacking), but it was basically a gun nut (which I am one) kind of round. .45 might have made more sense, but I was looking for something with a little twist.

Burrows: I always felt it didn't fit in with the rest of the game. It was a finely designed area, and would have helped the Glow, but it just didn't seem Fallout-like.

pax,
-Chris

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 4:49 am

Prov: Sorry about that, but I've wondered for some time and decided to ask in a topic he was likely to check on.

Chris: Thanks for stopping by and sharing the info.

Jack_Deth · Post by **Jack_Deth** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 5:56 am

I am glad it wasn't in the game, reminds me to much of the Beastlords from Tactics, which I hated.

Killzig · Post by **Killzig** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 6:31 am

Ehm, talking racoons with elf names. Tim, you made the right call.