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 Deathwish?: on the subjet of rationalizing poor game design View next topic
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Kickstand27
Desert Wanderer
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Joined: 15 Feb 2010
Posts: 517
Location: Old California Republic

PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:23 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Reading the Child killer thread in the news section got me thinking on this. let me put my helmet on....



i know you all dont like fallout 3..
thats cool.. its mechanics, story depth and perspective are vastly different than the originals..

but lets not pretend that the original fallouts were faultess

on the subject of rationalizing poor game design:

"I read the start thing of the bible thats on the net. One thing I don't agree with in the fallout universe is that the vaults were just a bunch of "social experiments". I mean why. Even though the enclave were a bunch of assholes, why would they want to purposely see their own country men die when the vaults were societys last chance at a good survivial. I like to think that lots of people died because the vaults just didn't work. Like in FOT there is a terminal that says that money had been diverted from much needed common sense things to an underground game hunting facility or whatever it was. experiments was a bit over the top, but corruption is far more believable. thats what i think anyhow. and Fallout 3, is it a possibility or not?



Michael



Answer: The vault experiments were an idea created by Tim Cain, and I don't really know the reason behind them, but I can offer some speculation.



First off, thematically, it's pretty creepy, and we all know that developers will pull all sorts of crazy shit to try and mess with players' heads. It's possible that Tim had just finished watching an X-Files episode and had conspiracy theories swimming around in his subconscious. As to your comment about the experiments being a bit over the top, well, yeah. We're guilty as charged.



Secondly, as proven time and again in Fallout 2, the Enclave isn't a particularly rational bunch of fellows. Thematically, they embrace a paranoid view of the world and a heightened sense of superiority over everyone else in Fallout.



Third, the federal government (or whatever branch of federal government was responsible - it was not necessarily the Enclave) may not have ever considered the Vaults as society's best chance for survival - the government may have considered themselves the best candidates for rebuilding the world and already had their asses covered in the event of a nuclear or biological war by relocating to other remote installations across the nation (and elsewhere) that weren't necessarily vaults. The Enclave certainly didn't seem to be devoting much effort to digging up any other vaults and trying to use the human stock there to rebuild civilization.



Fourth, a lot of people did die because the vaults didn't work. Some suffered worse fates.



Nonetheless, even members of the Enclave probably could not answer the question of who created the Vault experiments and their reasons, as many of the people responsible for the creation of the Vaults died long ago, and many records were lost in the great static of 2077. President Richardson was familiar with the purpose of the Vaults, but he never saw them as more than little test tubes of preserved humans he could mess with. "


wheeeee!!!!!!
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Kashluk
Grand MF
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Joined: 15 May 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:38 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

That is one of the big(gest) questions in the Fallout canon: why? Why the vaults? Why social experiments? What the fuck is wrong with you people? When could've thermo-nuclear warfare seemed like a great idea? Never heard of M.A.D?

War. War never changes.

Neither does the irrational and, in the end, quite darn stupid nature of a man.
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Yonmanc
Hero of the Glowing Lands
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Joined: 23 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:43 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

But it wasn't man. It was aliens.

LOL
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Cimmerian Nights
Striding Hero
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:29 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

The vault experiments fit perfectly with the darkly ironic, dystopian 50s sci-fi vibe of Fallout. It's right out of an old episode of the Twilight Zone and has it's basis in American history. Fallout is all about the 50s bright eyed, optimistic "world of tomorrow" gone horribly wrong, oft-times through heavy handed, self-serving gov't intervention, with the little guy paying the price. This is a thematic cornerstone of Fallout, and the Vault experiments fit right in.
Quote:

I mean why. Even though the enclave were a bunch of assholes, why would they want to purposely see their own country men die when the vaults were society's last chance at a good survival.

You actually did have the CIA doing shit like Project MK Ultra during the 50s experimenting with acid and other drugs, illegally, on unwitting "volunteers" for negligible scientific gain, and without using any of the information gleaned to any benefit, on the contrary they probably suppressed most of it. Given this, it's not a stretch at all.

It's pretty naive to assume that the more shadowy parts of our government have always or would act in the people's best interests. This is just not the case, and ignoring this and pinning it on "poor game design" is a pretty shallow analysis.


This is wiki so take it for what it's worth but:
Quote:
LSD

Early efforts focused on LSD, which later came to dominate many of MK-ULTRA's programs.

Experiments included administering LSD to CIA employees, military personnel, doctors, other government agents, prostitutes, mentally ill patients, and members of the general public in order to study their reactions. LSD and other drugs were usually administered without the subject's knowledge or informed consent, a violation of the Nuremberg Code that the U.S. agreed to follow after World War II.

Efforts to "recruit" subjects were often illegal, even discounting the fact that drugs were being administered (though actual use of LSD, for example, was legal in the United States until October 6, 1966). In Operation Midnight Climax, the CIA set up several brothels in San Francisco, CA to obtain a selection of men who would be too embarrassed to talk about the events. The men were dosed with LSD, the brothels were equipped with one-way mirrors, and the sessions were filmed for later viewing and study.[25]

Some subjects' participation was consensual, and in many of these cases, the subjects appeared to be singled out for even more extreme experiments. In one case, volunteers were given LSD for 77 consecutive days.[26]

LSD was eventually dismissed by MK-ULTRA's researchers as too unpredictable in its results.[27] Although useful information was sometimes obtained through questioning subjects on LSD, not uncommonly the most marked effect would be the subject's absolute and utter certainty that they were able to withstand any form of interrogation attempt, even physical torture.

Given this kind of activity, it's no leap at all to the vault experiments to be occurring in an alternate, dystopian universe. It's actually very apropos.



How does this constitute poor game design?

Kickstand27 wrote:

but lets not pretend that the original fallouts were faultess

ummm, who did?

Kashluk wrote:

War. War never changes.

Neither does the irrational and, in the end, quite darn stupid nature of a man.

This is what it's all about. Some developers tried to hold the mirror up to this, and others try to build a better PEWPEW LAz0rs.
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CloudNineGT
Striding Hero
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Joined: 17 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:45 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Is this in defense of Fallout 3? Or..?

Edit:
Kashluk wrote:
Neither does the irrational and, in the end, quite darn stupid nature of a man.

What can change the nature of a man?
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Blargh
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Joined: 09 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:42 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Ahahaha, this thread is joyous. icon_drunk
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Kickstand27
Desert Wanderer
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Joined: 15 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:20 am Reply with quoteBack to top

its not as much a defense of F3 as it is a quick jab from the new kid.

Hi1!

like i say, only bring it up because when i read "rationlizing poor game design" it made me think of that fallout bible snippet that i pasted in the OP. (it didnt really go in the news section, where i read the comment)
I dont have to say the vaults being social experiments dont make sense. Chris Avellone does that for me.


is the irony wasted?
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Blargh
Überkommando
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Joined: 09 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:52 am Reply with quoteBack to top

'Kickstand27' - font of concordian wonders. Ahahaha. icon_drunk
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Frater Perdurabo
Paragon
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Joined: 05 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:11 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

The concept of human rights is fairly new, by the way. Utilitarianism reigned for most of the 20th Century.
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inomel
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Joined: 19 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:44 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Kickstand27 wrote:


is the irony wasted?


It's a great deal of fun/annoyance to put a product out and learn how audiences "see" it. icon_chew
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Kashluk
Grand MF
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Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7500

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:02 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

CloudNineGT wrote:
Kashluk wrote:
Neither does the irrational and, in the end, quite darn stupid nature of a man.

What can change the nature of a man?


Exactly.
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