| Poll :: Cast your vote! |
| Chuck Baldwin, Constitution |
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9% |
[ 5 ] |
| Cynthia McKinney, Green |
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3% |
[ 2 ] |
| Bob Barr, Libertarian |
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7% |
[ 4 ] |
| Brian Moore, Socialist |
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3% |
[ 2 ] |
| Roger Calero, Socialist Workers |
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5% |
[ 3 ] |
| John McCain, Republican |
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23% |
[ 12 ] |
| Barack Obama, Democratic |
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45% |
[ 23 ] |
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| Total Votes : 51 |
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| Author |
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Myron
Regular
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Posts: 62
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
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 Posted:
Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:36 pm |
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| VasikkA wrote: | | USA is promoting their national interests abroad, just like everybody else. There's no charity or goodwill involved in that. |
What you say its mostly true, but tell me... What woulded be of the world today if it weren't for the americans? does the word terrorism means something to you? Why do you think they take the United States as their main target even after being helped by the US secret services fighting aganst the russian invasion at afeganistan? (just an example)... But the true also is that the only good leaders america had in the last fifthy years were murdered. But the question remains... What woulded be of the world today if it weren't for United states? |
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Myron
Regular
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Posts: 62
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
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Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:49 pm |
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| St. Toxic wrote: | | No, both statements are true. A cut down tree even releases the CO2 it was holding (albeit gradually). |
On that case i can only beg a pardon to those i might have deceived but the true is that i thougth that trees amongst many other plants decomposed CO2 and CO into the air releasing oxigen by day light and CO2 during night. Its possible that the CO2 that they release through the night is acumulated during the day but only the one they accumulated during a day cause they release it all nights due to the lack of sun light. So i guess that the CO2 generated but cutting them down wont be significant amounts... But im just i guy trying to know a little from everything and not someone who knows everything... |
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St. Toxic
Living Legend
Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 3040
Location: WAS STINKT DENN SO!?
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:12 pm |
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| Myron wrote: | | What you say its mostly true, but tell me... What woulded be of the world today if it weren't for the americans? does the word terrorism means something to you? Why do you think they take the United States as their main target even after being helped by the US secret services fighting aganst the russian invasion at afeganistan? (just an example)... But the true also is that the only good leaders america had in the last fifthy years were murdered. But the question remains... What woulded be of the world today if it weren't for United states? |
There are many possible scenarios.
Firstly, it's nigh unthinkable to conjure up an alternate reality where the Americas never underwent colonization. Even so, if Native Americans had adopted capitalism and land ownership on their own, and managed to repell the invaders, such a scenario might be possible, but the count of variables is staggering.
In a scenario where the colonies never rebelled, they would be under ownership of their respective home countries (GB, France, Netherlands etc), with a WW1 possibly surfacing alot sooner in history, with conflicts between these countries and Germany as a wildcard. The eventual outcome, which is the important aspect, would eventually have to follow the path of the Revolutionary war, and independence.
If a liberated America were without any say or industrial capacity, WW2 may also be a defining moment in history, with two potential outcomes; German or Soviet victory.
In any case, I believe that the world would be no worse without the USA. While technological advancements and discoveries are often attributed to one person or a group of people working together, they would be more accurately attributed to time itself. In more cases than I can count, discoveries and inventions surface almost simulatinously in various unconnected areas around the globe, simply because they are ripe for the picking. Nationality is not really a factor in genius or creativity, and governments cannot stop change, only suppress it for a limited period of time.
Cultural evolution, naturally, is a different matter. But there is no universal grade for culture. Had USA become a socialist superpower from the get-go, it would have generated culture no better or worse from what it does today.
It's incredibly foolish to think that the rest of the world would have been stuck in the dark ages were it not for the US of A. Every country has made a donation to history, and the world would look a whole lot different had they not; wether we're talking about Vikings and Romans, Germans and Brits, or Danes and Polacks makes no real difference.
EDIT: Also, your knowledge of terrorism is frightening. What is your reference material? American movies?
| Myron wrote: | | i thougth that trees amongst many other plants decomposed CO2 and CO into the air releasing oxigen by day light and CO2 during night. |
Stored CO2 is only ever released when the plant is harvested. During the day the plant releases oxygen in the LDP, and during the night the plant stores CO2, completing the exhale - inhale cycle. Some kind of sickness might theoretically make the plant store more CO2 than it can process, but even in such a scenario it's unlikely that the plant would actually release any CO2. |
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Myron
Regular
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Posts: 62
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:34 pm |
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| St. Toxic wrote: | | Myron wrote: | | What you say its mostly true, but tell me... What woulded be of the world today if it weren't for the americans? does the word terrorism means something to you? Why do you think they take the United States as their main target even after being helped by the US secret services fighting aganst the russian invasion at afeganistan? (just an example)... But the true also is that the only good leaders america had in the last fifthy years were murdered. But the question remains... What woulded be of the world today if it weren't for United states? |
There are many possible scenarios.
Firstly, it's nigh unthinkable to conjure up an alternate reality where the Americas never underwent colonization. Even so, if Native Americans had adopted capitalism and land ownership on their own, and managed to repell the invaders, such a scenario might be possible, but the count of variables is staggering.
In a scenario where the colonies never rebelled, they would be under ownership of their respective home countries (GB, France, Netherlands etc), with a WW1 possibly surfacing alot sooner in history, with conflicts between these countries and Germany as a wildcard. The eventual outcome, which is the important aspect, would eventually have to follow the path of the Revolutionary war, and independence.
If a liberated America were without any say or industrial capacity, WW2 may also be a defining moment in history, with two potential outcomes; German or Soviet victory.
In any case, I believe that the world would be no worse without the USA. While technological advancements and discoveries are often attributed to one person or a group of people working together, they would be more accurately attributed to time itself. In more cases than I can count, discoveries and inventions surface almost simulatinously in various unconnected areas around the globe, simply because they are ripe for the picking. Nationality is not really a factor in genius or creativity, and governments cannot stop change, only suppress it for a limited period of time.
Cultural evolution, naturally, is a different matter. But there is no universal grade for culture. Had USA become a socialist superpower from the get-go, it would have generated culture no better or worse from what it does today.
It's incredibly foolish to think that the rest of the world would have been stuck in the dark ages were it not for the US of A. Every country has made a donation to history, and the world would look a whole lot different had they not; wether we're talking about Vikings and Romans, Germans and Brits, or Danes and Polacks makes no real difference. |
I can't argue with that... but as you said there are many possible scenarios... What woulded be of Europe if the americans standed still during WW2, the role they played, play and will keep playing on the UN, the technology they develop in every possible fields from simple toasters, microwaves, cellphones to processors the latest satellites that allows the world to be connected and secure the way it is today, space discoverys and much much more... Obviously the rest of the world wouldn't be stuck in the dark ages, there is also the European Spacial Federation, lots of european satellites and also much more but United States makes a huge diference today (totaly disproportionate in a good way when compared to other contries) and that is fact. |
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St. Toxic
Living Legend
Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 3040
Location: WAS STINKT DENN SO!?
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Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:28 pm |
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| Myron wrote: | | I can't argue with that... but as you said there are many possible scenarios... What woulded be of Europe if the americans standed still during WW2, the role they played, play and will keep playing on the UN, the technology they develop in every possible fields from simple toasters, microwaves, cellphones to processors the latest satellites that allows the world to be connected and secure the way it is today, space discoverys and much much more... Obviously the rest of the world wouldn't be stuck in the dark ages, there is also the European Spacial Federation, lots of european satellites and also much more but United States makes a huge diference today (totaly disproportionate in a good way when compared to other contries) and that is fact. |
Again, you seem to suggest a scenario where the US is simply removed, here and now, together with every advancement attributed to americans, and we're left there with our thumbs up our asses. That's like saying we'd still be rolling around in mud and hitting each other with clubs to communicate, were it not for ancient Greece. No nation, no people can claim to be irreplaceable. Considering the low age of the US (and the continuous instability), I can't even say for sure that anyone will remember it a good thousand years from now. |
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VasikkA
Cold Tuna
Joined: 15 Jun 2002
Posts: 8565
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Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:10 pm |
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| Myron wrote: | | But the question remains... What woulded be of the world today if it weren't for United states? |
A whole lot of less shitty sitcoms, for one. |
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Manoil
Wastelander's Nightmare
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 2752
Location: Behind your Chair
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Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:48 pm |
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| Kashluk wrote: | Biofuel doesn't seem to be an option anymore amongst the great public, at least accross the Atlantic it isn't. A lot of statistics are showing that for the first time in, like, a century food production's so low that we actually wouldn't be able to feed the world's hungry, even if we wanted to. Until this moment and the past year or two, the distribution was the problem, not gross production, in terms of fighting hunger world wide.  So if we plan on getting everyone's mouth full we need to cut back on biofuel or cut down some forests for more farming land, which leads to bigger green house effect since forests hold huge amounts of carbon (-dioxide).
| Manoil wrote: | And you have definitely been giving me lulz as I looked across the last two pages, Kashluk. Bout to find me a potato  |
I'm not entirely sure if that's a good or a bad thing. The potatoe part kind of confused me. I know it's probably just some sort of a figure of speech I'm not getting, but that wouldn't be the first time. |
From the very same UrbanDictionary entry you showed me. First definition.
But yeah, we're having a serious decline in food production. I do think, however, that we can solve that problem, as well as create a serious increase in jobs, wealth, research, and exports, by an innovate-- although possibly quite costly-- alternative that I have been thinking about for years.
Imagine large, multistory buildings, with the inner climate controlled to exact conditions on each floor. Indoor UV-lighting and soil that is constantly nutrient-enriched to retain the highest quality plants.
Several floors could be used to grow specific crops year-round, whereas other floors could be used to research pharmeceuticals using otherwise-rare plants that could be grown in abundance.
Quite simply, a research building combined with a produce creator.
It would innovate and revitalize the farming industry, create hundreds of both blue and white collar jobs per installation, further current biochemical/organic knowledge and create a whole new flow of wealth.
I credit it as one of the few paragon ideas I've had in my life that were truly ingenious, as opposed to the numerous ones that seemed ingenious but made me stop and rethink things after even a single logical argument.
Granted these buildings would be pricy, but a large price tag isn't much to be concerned with if the building pays for itself in the first two years.
Toxic... your insight into the possible future, as always, is appreciated. |
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St. Toxic
Living Legend
Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 3040
Location: WAS STINKT DENN SO!?
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Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:52 pm |
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Danny, you're out of your fucking element!   |
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Kashluk
Grand MF
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7189
Location: 25°43'36.25" E , 62°14'0.97" N
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:55 pm |
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Oh, right... the potatoes. Now I get it.
One major problem with advances in food production is simply the population boom: when the basic necessities are all covered and you've got an extra billion people aimlessly walking around, without a deeper purpose or meaning than to multiply and consume, you're back to square one. How to feed them all? Everything should happen step-by-step with advancements and innovations in all other areas following the basics, so we could actually get something out of the fact that there's no more hunger. Jobs, to "simple" it out. We got to figure something rational for those poor souls to do than just merely exist.
Bleh, captain obvious strikes again, forgive my tired ranting. |
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AnneGwish
Vault Scion
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 228
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Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:04 pm |
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I recommend genocide to thin the numbers out so we have an abundance of food. Voila, problem solved for the moment. |
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Myron
Regular
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Posts: 62
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:02 pm |
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| St. Toxic wrote: | | Again, you seem to suggest a scenario where the US is simply removed, here and now, together with every advancement attributed to americans, and we're left there with our thumbs up our asses. That's like saying we'd still be rolling around in mud and hitting each other with clubs to communicate, were it not for ancient Greece. No nation, no people can claim to be irreplaceable. Considering the low age of the US (and the continuous instability), I can't even say for sure that anyone will remember it a good thousand years from now. |
Once again... what you say its true... But i think you missunderstood my last post. What i was trying to say is that america its quite a very important country and it woulded be dificult to imagine how it woulded be the world today if we excluded all the contributes they've made til'now to mankind (both tecnological, financial and military). But when i said that i couldn't argue with what you said, it was because as everyone knows if it weren't for England, France, Spanish, Portugal non of American continent woulded be has we know it today (both South, Central and North America). The latin coutries were influenced by the Spanish (Venezuela, Bolivia, Mexico, Peru, Paraguai...), Portuguese (Brazil), the English (USA) the French (mainly Canada and also a lot of USA when they helped it fought by its independence oftering the famous Statue of Liberty). The world was mostly molded by european hands but right now we all got to addicted to American influence in many ways as we can prove it right now by watching the consequences of they're financial condition (due to the recent war in iraq and afeganistan from my point of view (wars are expensive))... But as i was saying they're actual financial condition as only been reflected in one simple thing... and that is nothing less than... Global Crisis. Thats the kind of influence that i was trying to describe that the entire world (at least most of it) as created in relation to USA, but sometimes i find it hard to pick the right to words to explain it due to my lack of english vocabulary... Still i get your point but it would seem to me that you missed mine. The short version... The true is that the rest of the world woulded have evoluted perfectly even withou USA but we must live with the path we have come to right now and that is... America is a vital nation to everyone and what affects them, affects everyone wich makes me even as portuguese paying as much attention as i can spare to they're actual status... |
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Redeye
Devil times three go climb a tree
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 3827
Location: filth
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| Posted:
Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:10 am |
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| Kashluk wrote: | Oh, right... the potatoes. Now I get it.
One major problem with advances in food production is simply the population boom: when the basic necessities are all covered and you've got an extra billion people aimlessly walking around, without a deeper purpose or meaning than to multiply and consume, you're back to square one. How to feed them all? Everything should happen step-by-step with advancements and innovations in all other areas following the basics, so we could actually get something out of the fact that there's no more hunger. Jobs, to "simple" it out. We got to figure something rational for those poor souls to do than just merely exist.
Bleh, captain obvious strikes again, forgive my tired ranting. |
Hybridize Welfare with Civil Defense.
A cellular network of self-sufficient modules could provide a safety buffer.
Stack them up like this (pipe sunlight fiber-optically in larger implementations).
Plug ppl into MMOs to keep them busy. Every once in a while one of them gets to immigrate to "the Island". (i.e. the "Soylent Green" vacation.)
Oh, and sterilize Joe the Plumber. |
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Manoil
Wastelander's Nightmare
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 2752
Location: Behind your Chair
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| Posted:
Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:13 am |
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| Kashluk wrote: | Oh, right... the potatoes. Now I get it.
One major problem with advances in food production is simply the population boom: when the basic necessities are all covered and you've got an extra billion people aimlessly walking around, without a deeper purpose or meaning than to multiply and consume, you're back to square one. How to feed them all? Everything should happen step-by-step with advancements and innovations in all other areas following the basics, so we could actually get something out of the fact that there's no more hunger. Jobs, to "simple" it out. We got to figure something rational for those poor souls to do than just merely exist.
Bleh, captain obvious strikes again, forgive my tired ranting. |
That would be the stage that most sci-fi predicted us being at around this point in time-- spreading to other planets, throughout the vastness of space. It's a helluva lot harder to overpopulate a planet when the people have more than one to choose from.
But again, that would take time that I feel nobody's willing to wait out or spend pursuing the goals.
End-all truth: we are massively behind our potential.
Redeye... wow. I like the enthusiasm.
| St. Toxic wrote: | | Danny, you're out of your fucking element! |
MPD grants me many elements, Tox. |
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VasikkA
Cold Tuna
Joined: 15 Jun 2002
Posts: 8565
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Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:27 pm |
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I may have stumbled upon a plot to liquidate our beloved First Brother! 
Who should I call? |
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St. Toxic
Living Legend
Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 3040
Location: WAS STINKT DENN SO!?
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Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:01 pm |
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Amis
Vault Scion
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 240
Location: Finland
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:33 am |
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Barrack Obama the biggest dick in the white house!  |
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jetbaby
Mamma's Gang member
Joined: 18 Jan 2004
Posts: 3923
Location: Magical Island
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Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:10 am |
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| AnneGwish wrote: | | I recommend genocide to thin the numbers out so we have an abundance of food. Voila, problem solved for the moment. |
Xenocide is the answer. |
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Dogmeatlives
250 Posts til Somewhere
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 2993
Location: Junktown, Phil's doorstep
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Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:16 am |
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| Amis wrote: | | Barrack Obama the biggest dick in the white house! |
Literally, and figuratively 
you know, once America's presidency goes black, it never goes back :nevergetsold: |
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Manoil
Wastelander's Nightmare
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 2752
Location: Behind your Chair
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:09 am |
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We've already been to this conclusion. LeBron James, '12.
Oh noes.
"Sup Beetches... it's CHAD Warden, all about that PS triple in twenny-sixteen." |
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PiP
Hahah, I'm a bitch
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 4947
Location: transition
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:58 am |
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| Manoil wrote: | We've already been to this conclusion. LeBron James, '12.
Oh noes.
"Sup Beetches... it's CHAD Warden, all about that PS triple in twenny-sixteen." |
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