Open Forum: A Challenge

[PsychoSniper]

Exellent point Lysandus.

And the sad thing is these kiddies are so used to button mashing (were the tactics basicly mean run around killing them quicker than they kill you) that they have missed the strategy avalible in FO thru the TB combat.

[wamingo]

A: Hairy deathclaws and other setting fuckups DID make FO:Craptics NOT a FO game.
They butcherd the setting, which made it not feel like Fallout.

Do you have a page with prewritten answers on?
You sling out nonsense. FOT did a decent job at keeping the graphics style and world in tact with fallout. A bit clean yeah but "Butchered" is way too harsh.

TB combat is more than just tactics, it lends to a thoughtful style of gameplay.

eh?
What's thoughtful, nevermind strategic, about aiming for the groins and waiting for criticals and reloading if you rolled under 3? The combat is all about setting up stats before the combat commences and it leaves very little interesting after the combat button is pressed. Most "exciting" when attempting to cross a field full of sentry guns and cover conveniently layed out.

TB makes little difference. Tetris Quake makes a big ass difference. Try to keep things reasonable man.

[Lysandus]

TB combat is more than just tactics, it lends to a thoughtful style of gameplay.

eh?
What's thoughtful, nevermind strategic, about aiming for the groins and waiting for criticals and reloading if you rolled under 3? The combat is all about setting up stats before the combat commences and it leaves very little interesting after the combat button is pressed. Most "exciting" when attempting to cross a field full of sentry guns and cover conveniently layed out.

TB makes little difference. Tetris Quake makes a big ass difference. Try to keep things reasonable man.

Fallout 1&2 will never be as frantic or exciting as any RT game. They shouldn't be.

The whole point I was trying to make was that TB worked in Fallout because Fallout's gameplay style was designed to be slower and more relaxed. Tetris and Doom were designed to be fast and exciting. If you made a TB Tetris it wouldn't be Tetris. It would be a puzzle game with the name Tetris slapped on it.

Making FO realtime is akin to trying to fit a square peg through a round hole. If you want to be excited then play a game created for that purpose. How's that for reason, man?

[PsychoSniper]

EDIT: I dont mean you Lysandus.

You're full of shit.


A: Hairy deathclaws- they did a craptacular job of moving the artwork foward.

Sure, newer better graphics are nice, but they failed to make them fit the setting, which made them irrelvent

B: HMMWVs- What the fuck ? They took a modern vehicle (one that's close to being replaced anyway) and made it a vehicle in the game.
If the BOS had cars, they'd get something a bit more modern. And if the game designers had done their jobs, it would have been something that actualy fit the setting, either a cobbled together BOS buggy like something out of mad max, or something that was a military vehicle from before the bombs dropped in the FO era.

C: modern weapons- FO is a post appoc RETRO future.

That means we dont have all these modern or WW2 weapons, but rather weapons that look semi retro, but at the same time are from the future.

In the origonal FO, the PC starts out with a 10mm semi auto pistol, and moves upwards.

You have options like a generic sniper riffle, or the FO universes version of an AK74, but even newer, you have shotguns designed for combat and many other things like that.

And they all have one thing in common, they're designed to be a semi generic yet still distinct weapon with a connection to the FO universe, not to the real world.


D: Power Armor- This is the crown jewels of FO, and one of the more well known images.
FO:Craptics basterdized it.

They took the semi clunky looking armor from FO that still had the retro look to it, and made it look like something from preadtor almost.

It looks really horrible.

And thats the only kind they had, as the advance power armor looks the same.

Then they also just plain cut the combat armor, which was yet another dumb mistake.

[Thor Kaufman]

All this talking about FOT actually makes me want to play it again, although I found it rather crappy the first two times I played it

[PsychoSniper]

Dont get me wrong, some aspects of FO:C are fun, but as a FO game (which is the semi wandering topic here) it fails badly.


Now, if they had made FO:C in a diffrent setting, WW2 or modern era, or near future, it could have been a decent game.

But as a FO game, Craptics as a dismal failure.

[minigunwielder]

Actualy, it was far more than the un-RPGness of FOCraptics that made it not fallout.

Things like the lack of a setting prehaps.........




For the rest of it.

FO isnt like other so c alled RPGs.



If beating a boss depends on how fast you can mash a button, than the characther system is renderd null.


The whole point of TB combat is becayse FO is supposed to emulate PnP RPGs as closley as possible for a cRPG.


And combat is one of the smaller points of the game.

Its supposed to be based more on the experince of playing your characther and reading the dialouge.


Combat in FO isnt as bad as you seem to think, either, as unlike many other rpgs FO's combat relies on your characthers stats. Nothing else.


No FPS crapfest like in morrowind were your reaction times and all that stuff depends on how fast you can use a xbox controller, or Dungeon Siege were combat is the entire game, in FO everything depends on JUST your stats. Thats the whole essence of a RPG.


The only thing that could make it better would be to change it from one person acting at a time, to everyone makes one turn at once, and their reaction time effects who shots first and such.

And if something happens before your react and you get knocked back n such, your turn gets nullified.

Even this incoherent newb managed to more coherent than the TB bashers, before they fled to their fortresses of "W3II B4N UZ!!!!@!@!@!@!#OUIJA!!!"
Now newb Psycho already, so he stops being representative of DaC.

[Slaughter_Manslaught]

You're full of shit.

No, PsychoSniper, YOU are full of shit!

A: Hairy deathclaws- they did a craptacular job of moving the artwork foward.

Sure, newer better graphics are nice, but they failed to make them fit the setting, which made them irrelvent

How hard is for your little chipamzee head to acept two things:
A: They had to make a way to diferentiate teams on multi.
B: They're NOT the same deathclaws that lived on the west coast and where mutated jacksons. They're mamals ferocious like west-coast deathclaws, and problably named Deathclaws because they're agressive like stardard Deathclaws.
C: They are hairy because they live on a place with a diferente, less desert, more snow, climate.


PsychoSniper problably hates FOT because he's some n00b asshated (whatever the hell is that) loser that just gets his ass kicked on multi all the time by HAIRY deathclaws that are HAIRIER than he is!

[minigunwielder]

I take it back, Psychosniper is not the most deserved of ass-hattedness.

:hope...in...humanity...failing:

[PsychoSniper]

wait, you still HAD hope in humanity ?


And S&M....... They were hairy because the folks that made Craptics fucked up the setting, which includes the artwork.

[Slaughter_Manslaught]

wait, you still HAD hope in humanity ?


And S&M....... They were hairy because the folks that made Craptics fucked up the setting, which includes the artwork.

Well, SURE they did some little bad things, but FUCKING UP is overeacting. And hairy deathclaws are just a little detail.

[PsychoSniper]

Actualy, they did fuck it up.


And its one of MANY little details.

The fact of the matter was that they couldnt even manage to get the basic 50s retro future theme of FO right.

Thats the whole issue.

[minigunwielder]

No I was being sarcastic you tool.

[Thor Kaufman]

Kids, please, Psycho got it all right, FO:T really is shit.
It's so crude, I guess I'll never make it past the first sector. Totally lifeless game, I bet not even the makers like it. Just uninstalled it again.

[PsychoSniper]

More than anything else, the feel that you're doing a dungeon crawl level by level is what ruins it.

Last time I had it installed, I played up to that level were you kill all of the beast raiders and free the deathclaws.

Basicly Id just load the save, and go in and massacre everything, then turn it off and do something useful.

They did do one thing right, the projectile animations for lasers, plasma, pulse, and Gauss weaponry were very nice.

Course, that stuff's been ported over to FO .FRM format for animations by wild_qwerty over a year ago too.

[wamingo]

Making FO realtime is akin to trying to fit a square peg through a round hole. If you want to be excited then play a game created for that purpose.

The hole is probably plenty big to fit several square pegs... Please don't play analogy game with me.. Someone's just bound to make some lame one with a BMW and a tricycle eventually.

I think the problem is you think combat is a significant part of this game when it's actually not. Why? Because combat doesn't drive this game.
TB is significant in 'this' combat system which is insignificant and unimportant. Use a different combat system and you got a perfectly good sequel which isn't unpopular by default.

I understand the sentiment that you don't want the game to be a fast hack'n'slash and neither would I. If I had my way it would be CTB and slower than FOT. And with only 1 controllable character it wouldn't be bad. Add cover and stances and an ai that can use it and you got a game that needs no more enemies than FO to make for fun combat.

Won't hurt to try a little imagination sometimes.

[PsychoSniper]

While that CTB premise might be intersting, the fact of the matter is the TB is a big thing for FO.


A big point of FO is it's at core a cRPG that wants to be a PnP RPG.

That means TB combat.

[MRhappy]

Allrighty. If you are one of those people who thinks that a game with TB combat cannot possibly succeed in todays market, there are two things you should consider.

Number One: you probably have an undersized member. thankyouverymuch


Number two: How mainstream gamers percieve TB combat vs. what potential a TB system has, what it can do, and good TB games. I 'll tell you what I mean. Fallout was the first game I played and enjoyed that had TB combat. Fallout is not the best example of this system, but its not terrible, and is fun, as long as you are not a moron and make sure the combat speed is all the way up.

But any way. What impressed me? The "tactics" in aiming at different body parts and being able to move around, and of course the bloody animations. LOL. Of course calling aiming for different body parts excellent tactics is a bit of a strench. But when you consider the experience I had with other TB games, this is understandable. Most games of this sort, you were rooted to the spot. And then it proceeded.

Me: attack chosen from a few all of which have similar effects > MISSs
Opponent: attack one hit point
(continue until massive critical, where the orc falls over bloodlessly then disappears)

This is called not taking advantage of the advantages of turn based combat (I'm sure you saw that in your minds eye). No wonder I was impressed by Fallout. And the thing is, I'm sure this is how many perceive TB.

When I showed the fallout combat to some of my friends how played mostly sports action games and previously had no interest in tb games, they were impressed for the same reasons. They had never heard of things like action points and hadnt considered the advantages that tb combat can have (BTW, if you cant see that TB combat can do things that RT cannot, like allowing for more application of character skill and theoretically unlimited tactical options, reconsider your life plz) . When I had seen games like Silent storm and JA2, the sorts of games most people never hear about, I was even more impressed with the tactical options. How awesome would those things be in FO3 combat? Totally awesome.

Have you played recent “mainstream� TB games, like that LOTR THE THIRD FUGGIN AGE? Its no surprise that they flopped. Dumbing down tb combat is usually a bad idea, because you are taking away from its advantages.

I do like fallout combat, and its possible that adding to much more in the way of tactics would mess up its simple beauty. But there are plenty things that could be added to Fallout combat that could make it appeal to mainstream gamers, and many of them to me. Cinematic camera swings, destructible environments a la that lobby scene in the matrix, ability to target non living things, crouching, going prone, a cover/interruption system, ability to change cone of burst weapons, etc. I will probably come up with more later, so brace for awesome.

Also, imagine FO combat in real time. It would have sucked some significant ass. There are games for that kind of stuff, and fallout is not one of them, moorons. For one thing, tb applied the character’s skills very nicely, in real time it would have been about your skill. TB also lengthened combat, it would have been over real quick in real time, as many enemies took only one or two shots. In real time, it would have been a massive clickfest. Again, maybe in an action game.

There are also many silly misconceptions considering game combat. One is that RT is more realistic. Not really. Of course, in real life you don’t have time to plan out each of your moves, but you also don’t stand right in front of a guy blasting away in his general direction (while he is doing the same to you) until somebody dies. RT may look more realistic, or at least cinematic, but TB is probably a better simulation of the tactics and all the combat skill that you don’t have. In the end they are both abstractions, so your argument fails. Another misconception is that RT is obviously more exciting. But says who? You fail too.

Even Todd Howard once had a few words to say on this matter in a fun interview:

Whilst every fan tends to have a different idea of what precisely Fallout 3 should be, there are a few things that most of us are unified on. Are you aware of the strong desires for turn-based combat and the classic 3/4 top-down viewpoint? Do you think pure turn-based combat in an RPG is viable in today's market?

Todd: Yes, of course we've heard many of the old-school fans regarding the view and combat resolution. What's viable today? Certainly turn-based combat limits your audience to a small number, but I do find that audiences will come if your game is good enough and the presentation is superb. Ultimately we'll do what we think will be the most fun.

Of course, completely ambiguous, and I have a good guess of what Todd thinks is most fun and its not TB combat, but even he said that if its good enough the audiences will come.

Also, turn based internet flash games (like strategy war or something and that gladiator game) are pretty popular. Just as a side note.
But, I do agree that fallout was not defined by its combat. It was still a part though, as fallout ultimately was a sum of its parts. It was everything that came together so smoothly that is its lasting appeal. I would say that, unlike many games of the time, fallout is still plenty viable today. What’s every 14 year olds favorite RPG these days? KOTOR (or maybe Oblivion). Yeah, I know, LOL. And kotor did a lot less than fallout.

But lets talk about other things that I’m afraid of Bethesda considering not viable today:

FIGURING THINGS OUT ON YOUR OWN: is what you had to do a lot in fallout. There were no journal entries for hints, no pop ups and quest arrows guiding every step of your way. You had to go on the clues you had, and there were multiply ways that you could be lead to.

CHOICES AND CONSEQUENCES: One very sad day iI saw someone write on a forum. “GAWD I hated Jade Empire, I hated having to reload to see all the choices erswews.� Now I have never played said game, but that’s not the point. Games today seem to be made for people who play it once through to see everything. You can join one faction, but its isolated from the world, so you can be the king of all of them. No world reaction to your actions. ‘A choice without a consequence isnt really a choice� – A wise man.

DETAILS: Im sure bethesda is going to do something like make universal ammo, or get rid of radiation or dehydration, or make the world scaled down so you can walk from town to town in hour. They should be adding details, nuances of gameplay to consider, not removing them.

DIALOGUE: After Obivions dialogue, who isnt?

50’s THEME: Im sure they’ll get the “grittyness�, but not sure not the nuclear scare theme, 50s culture etc. Plus the Brotherhood of steal sux.

Again, I will probably think of more things to add later, so have fun.

good night. and good luck.

[Lysandus]

I think the problem is you think combat is a significant part of this game when it's actually not. Why? Because combat doesn't drive this game.

Combat doesn't define the game, no. But it's still a big part of it even if you play a diplomat. Combat didn't define Torment or Arcanum either, but you still spent plenty of time on it.

Q: How many RPGs have combat as a major feature.
A: Most, if not all of them.

I remember recommending Torment to a friend a while back. He quit because he was frustrated by the combat system. And I don't even know how many times I've seen people quit Arcanum because they kept getting slaughtered in the Blackmountain clan mines. Two great RPGs, that didn't focus on battle alone, crippled by the addition of RT combat systems.

If I had my way it would be CTB and slower than FOT.

Why do you think a change in combat system is warranted in Fallout 3 at all?

FOT didn't claim to be a sequel to Fallout, hence the name 'Fallout: Tactics'. It was a spinoff and, as such, wasn't expected to be too much like the original. People hate Tactics mainly because it was a bad game. Everything it did, JA2 did first and better.

People are upset with Bethsoft because they ARE claiming to make a sequel and not a good one from the sound of it.

Add cover and stances and an ai that can use it...

I'm not opposed to any of that.

[PsychoSniper]

MRhappy, that was an exellent post.


First, the BOS doesnt suck :p .

its the crappy spinoff games that have made use of it, and the resulting shit, that suclks :p .



As far as the destructable enviroments, once again hell yes.

You want in a locked door.

Your lockpick skill sucks.

You should have the option to shoot the door open, bash it with a sledge, or use a crowbar.

Plus theres explosives.


[quote]There are also many silly misconceptions considering game combat. One is that RT is more realistic. Not really. Of course, in real life you don’t have time to plan out each of your moves, but you also don’t stand right in front of a guy blasting away in his general direction (while he is doing the same to you) until somebody dies. RT may look more realistic, or at least cinematic, but TB is probably a better simulation of the tactics and all the combat skill that you don’t have. In the end they are both abstractions, so your argument fails. Another misconception is that RT is obviously more exciting. But says who? You fail too.[/qupte


Agreed. For those that actualy play the game for what it is, a RP game, TB offers MANY choices of a tactical nature.

Hers an example from my latest FO run.

The quest to evict the raiders from the farmhouse and get the .223 pistol.

I started combat by shooting thru a window. (or did I throw a nade, I cant remember) (NW side of the house, for those intersted)

I then used my remaining AT to run a couple of hex's out of the line of fire.

Tycho then proceded to used all of his ATs to run towards the far west corner of the house.

Next turn, I did the same.

My first turn cycle after rounding the corner and having a clear line of sight with the enemy, I fired (I had that obsolete but futeristic AK varriant) a single shot.

The next few turns, I proceded to work my way in an arc around tycho, firing single aimed shots, then using one cycle's ATs for nothing but moving.

Next cycle, my party NPCs were clear, and I switched to grenades and burst.

The battle ended soon thereafter.



And for the console kiddies here who are thinking that FO is a great idea that needs to be 'liek morrowind with teh gunz so you can have teh tactics I uzed in Marrowind'; I have just shown you shitheads how tactics can be used in Fallout.

Yeah, you can (especily once you level up and get decent weapons) just stand there and shoot people, but wheres the fun in that. Its called a RolePlay game for a reason.


And Lysandus, agreed.

As far as cover and stances, deffinitly. It's something that could be semi easily adapted to SPECIAL TB combat.

Stances could be used easily enough, and since we know it'll be 3D, add a few things like height's on objects so they can be ducked down behind.

That said, dont have cover hand fed for morronic players.

Have it simply BE there. How it helps depends on if you get behind it or not.