Penny Arcade sez: Oblivion combat still sucks

Comment on events and happenings in the Fallout community.
Post Reply
User avatar
Mad Max RW
Paparazzi
Paparazzi
Posts: 2253
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 1:20 am
Location: Balls Deep in the Wasteland
Contact:

Penny Arcade sez: Oblivion combat still sucks

Post by Mad Max RW »

<strong>[ Game -> Preview ]</strong> - More info on <a href="http://wikipocalypse.duckandcover.cx/in ... e=Bethesda Softworks">Company: Bethesda Softworks</a>

<strong>Tycho</strong> at <a href="http://www.penny-arcade.com/" target="_blank">Penny Arcade</a> posted his impressions of
<strong>ES3: Oblivion</strong> as seen at last week's E3.
I'll let his own words dash your hopes for an improvement over
Morrowind's joke of a combat system:<blockquote><em>...This
is my exact problem with Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, too. Understand that
we're talking about a game whose prisons, homes, and forests might as
well be real places, for all their visual fidelity. It's better than
you hoped. The stone wall in the first room was so beautiful I thought
I would cry, screenshots of the game are absolutely worthless as a
means of conveying it. <u>I liked Morrowind, as you might recall
- I had a Tiger-Man in there I was quite fond of - but the combat is
philosophically identical in Oblivion</u>, which, you know,
whatever. I doubt it's a problem for most people. What I'd hoped was
for the conflict in Oblivion to make the same kind of leap that Tamriel
itself had - more elaborate means of dodging, special tactics, timed
attacks, parries, ripostes, etcetera. Richness. It's hardly going to
make me leave it on the shelf, but I can see where the experience goes
from here and I'd just like to go with
it.</em></blockquote>Can't say I'm surprised. Fanboys still
have another pretty safari simulation to look forward to, I guess. What does
this have to do with Fallout 3? If they can't get it right after two
sequels, we should just start packing our bags right now.
<p>Spotted @ <a href="http://www.penny-arcade.com/">Penny Arcade</a></p>
User avatar
S4ur0n27
Mamma's Gang member
Mamma's Gang member
Posts: 15172
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2002 10:14 am
Contact:

Post by S4ur0n27 »

Why fix it if it ain't broken? Lot of people like that POS system.
User avatar
Nicolai
ASSHAT
ASSHAT
Posts: 3735
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2003 4:38 pm
Location: Wheelchair Warez HQ

Post by Nicolai »

Tycho who?
User avatar
MrSmileyFaceDude
I Make Games!
I Make Games!
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:56 pm
Location: Rockville, MD

Post by MrSmileyFaceDude »

They didn't play it. Combat in Morrowind had no variety and no strategy -- you just clicked as fast as you could. You COULD choose different attacks (slash, chop, or thrust) by pressing a directional key while you attacked, but that was pointless because there was always a "best" attack, and a checkbox in the options to always use that best attack.

In Oblivion, there are many attacks. You have standard attacks, where you click the attack button, and power attacks, where you hold the attack button. Power attacks do more damage, but take longer to perform and burn more fatigue. If you press a directional button while doing a power attack, you can select different power attacks. And you earn more attacks (plus perks like a chance to knockdown or disarm) as your skills get better. But the control scheme stays the same, so you don't have to do Soul Calibur like button combos to access them.

There are also more animations for the standard attacks, and you can string them together by pressing attack again while your character is following through after a strike. Plus, the animations are always appropriate for the type of weapon. No more thrust attack with a hammer, for example.

Blocking is now active -- you hold a button to block. And you can block with your weapon or even your hands (although neither is as effective as blocking with a shield). If you block a strike, your opponent's weapon may recoil, giving you an opportunity to attack.

You can also cast spells at any time. In Morrowind you had to "ready magic", which meant unequipping your weapon and raising your hands into the "casting position". In Oblivion you just press the casting button.

It all makes combat much more dynamic and adds a strategic element that simply wasn't there in Morrowind.

While you, the player, still control combat -- i.e. how you move around, whom you are targeting, when you attack, block & cast -- your level of success is still dependent upon your character's stats, as well as those of your opponent. It's a balance between player skills and character stats. It's more twitch than a pure turn-based game, but it's nowhere near as twitch as a first person shooter or fighting game.

The goal is to make combat more exciting, more involving, and have more depth than Morrowind's. I guess they didn't get that from the demo.
User avatar
POOPERSCOOPER
Paparazzi
Paparazzi
Posts: 5035
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2003 1:50 am
Location: California

Post by POOPERSCOOPER »

sounds alright, but aren't you hired to please the fallout fans? :chew:
Join us on IRC at #fallout on the gamesurge.net network.
User avatar
MrSmileyFaceDude
I Make Games!
I Make Games!
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:56 pm
Location: Rockville, MD

Post by MrSmileyFaceDude »

:D
User avatar
Aonaran
Striding Hero
Striding Hero
Posts: 1261
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 8:02 pm

Post by Aonaran »

Sometimes the truth is pleasing, Oblivion is going to be a great game.
User avatar
Mr. Teatime
Righteous Subjugator
Righteous Subjugator
Posts: 3340
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 12:07 pm

Post by Mr. Teatime »

Well I think the combat will be significantly different from Morrowind. I'm also certain that Oblivion will pick up as many awards as Morrowind, and the commercial sites and magazines will give it their 99% ratings and so on.

I also think that FO3's combat will be significantly different from Morrowind's and Oblivions. I'm also certain that FO3 will get plenty accolades from those same commercial sites. It will most likely be as good a game as oblivion is, if not better.

Whether it feels 'Fallout' or not is what worries me, and what remains to be seen. 'Fallout' is, but not limited to, the unique, quirky combat, the massive character of the game world, the viewpoint (in some respects), and so on.

What gives me hope (and I could list what DOESN'T give me hope but that's been done plenty times before) is that Bethsoft appear to be prepared to spend money on their games, and that they also seem to care about how the 'hardcore' (ie us) react, not just the magazine reviews, which are sure to be great, whether people like MSFD read here or not.
User avatar
S4ur0n27
Mamma's Gang member
Mamma's Gang member
Posts: 15172
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2002 10:14 am
Contact:

Post by S4ur0n27 »

Mr. Teatime wrote:Well I think the combat will be significantly different from Morrowind. I'm also certain that Oblivion will pick up as many awards as Morrowind, and the commercial sites and magazines will give it their 99% ratings and so on.

I also think that FO3's combat will be significantly different from Morrowind's and Oblivions. I'm also certain that FO3 will get plenty accolades from those same commercial sites. It will most likely be as good a game as oblivion is, if not better.
Brown tongue and nose!!
User avatar
Mr. Teatime
Righteous Subjugator
Righteous Subjugator
Posts: 3340
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 12:07 pm

Post by Mr. Teatime »

Well I did say commercial sites and reviews, which are generally meaningless. That was kind of the point. And 'as good as oblivion' can be read in many ways... I guess I'm just diplomatic on FO3. I do think it will be a good game, I am not as sure whether it will be 'fallout'.
rabidpeanut
Perpetual SDF
Posts: 1617
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:28 pm
Location: On top of blargh's mom.

Post by rabidpeanut »

You know sauron just cause someone says something nice does not mean thatr they are kissing ass like you little orc minions do, I agree with the teetotaller, oblivion should rock, and if it is better than expected i'll need a new pc (NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
oooooooooooooooooooooo
oooo........................)(I just got one)

Just to the guys at bethesda, PLEASE i beg of you don't put the morrowind type conversation system in fallout 3 that is the only thing that i did not like about morrowind(that and those damn bird things) Oh and the water does FREAKY things with ati's new drivers. Oh about the conversation morrowind effectively has 1 character, he looks different every time you meet him or her, but there is only 1 brain, it might be collective but it is still the same one, that is why i play icewind dale 2 instead and that has about 3 minutes of conversation in the whole game.
User avatar
S4ur0n27
Mamma's Gang member
Mamma's Gang member
Posts: 15172
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2002 10:14 am
Contact:

Post by S4ur0n27 »

Thank you mega.
User avatar
NeVeRLiFt
SDF!
SDF!
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:32 am
Location: In the shadows of the Megacorporations
Contact:

Post by NeVeRLiFt »

I still have Daggerfall installed and playing with dosbox...
I make damn sure I cast Mark as soon as I enter anything and then Recall to get out!
iAMD64. µ
The World is changed, Some say Awakened.
It's 13:53:33 . Do You Know Where Your Meat Body Is?
Shadowrunner by trade...
User avatar
DarkUnderlord
Paragon
Paragon
Posts: 2372
Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 7:21 pm
Location: I've got a problem with my Goggomobil. Goggo-mobil. G-O-G-G-O. Yeah, 1954. Yeah, no not the Dart.
Contact:

Post by DarkUnderlord »

Just as long as Fallout 3 is turn-based and isometric and that the guys at Bethsoft learn a lot of lessons about great turn-based combat from Troika's the Temple of Elemntal Evil, I'll likely be happy with the combat system in FO3 at least¹.

Hopefully as long as they keep the very simple formula "(Oblivion != Fallout 3) in anyway shape or form" in mind, they should be right. Or at least, God I hope so.

Combat in Oblivion sounds betterer though. Given the type of game it is and short of making it a fully-fledged FPS or "player skills based" combat vs "character skills based", there's an aspect of it that will always boil down to whack-a-mole. It sounds like they've gone at least some way to make it slightly more interesting this time though.

¹The right is reserved for me to complain when I actually see it though and if I think they fucked something up - or even if I think they didn't. I guess I just like to complain.
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
User avatar
Smiley
Righteous Subjugator
Righteous Subjugator
Posts: 3186
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 11:20 pm
Location: Denmark. Smiley-land.
Contact:

Post by Smiley »

I don't give a shit about the graphics.
I don't want a game that tears my machine apart!

I want a good story, lots of choices, weapons, NPC's and monsters.

Then I'm set.

The fighting system works fine, you can skullbash with the best attack if you want, but you can also do a little strategic fighting, and try spending less fatigue on almost sure hits (Stabbing...), for low damage.

I don't mind that they don't change this.
Testicular Pugilist
Burnov
Wanderer
Wanderer
Posts: 442
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2003 12:31 pm

Post by Burnov »

Now for Daggerfall, which the combat was carried over from. At the time you have to understand that it was a real breakthrough.

Most RPGS gave you either the option of playing final fantagay style fucktard moron monkey felching combat. Or something akin to the crpgs of old. Yes. There was JA/DG and Fallout, but once you were done with those? What next?

Anyhow. At the time it was a game that encompassed all of the enjoyment of a roleplaying game, with combat that resembled something from an FPS.

So basically it was a roleplaying game that wasn't turnbased, or fallout or Jagged Alliance. That was actually fun.

I thoroughly enjoyed Daggerfall and eagerly anticipated Morrowind. Many years back. Before they were whored to the satan Zeni Max and decided to change the game and churn out the rushed Xbox pile of shit we have today. However back then. It was decent.

...This is my exact problem with Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, too. Understand that we're talking about a game whose prisons, homes, and forests might as well be real places, for all their visual fidelity. It's better than you hoped. The stone wall in the first room was so beautiful I thought I would cry, screenshots of the game are absolutely worthless as a means of conveying it. I liked Morrowind, as you might recall - I had a Tiger-Man in there I was quite fond of - but the combat is philosophically identical in Oblivion, which, you know, whatever. I doubt it's a problem for most people. What I'd hoped was for the conflict in Oblivion to make the same kind of leap that Tamriel itself had - more elaborate means of dodging, special tactics, timed attacks, parries, ripostes, etcetera. Richness. It's hardly going to make me leave it on the shelf, but I can see where the experience goes from here and I'd just like to go with it.
This is my exact problem with most modern FPS games incidentally. State of the art graphics. Fucking overly simplified quake/doom/unreal swell guy 10 year old gameplay.

This is why Operation Flashpoint 2 is the only FPS I'm even remotely looking forward to playing.
Last edited by Burnov on Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Mad Max RW
Paparazzi
Paparazzi
Posts: 2253
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 1:20 am
Location: Balls Deep in the Wasteland
Contact:

Post by Mad Max RW »

The gameplay of Quake, Doom, and Unreal is way the fuck more complex and FUN than Elder Scrolls.
Our Host!
Post Reply