Penny Arcade sez: Oblivion combat still sucks

Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:26 pm

[ Game -> Preview ] - More info on Company: Bethesda Softworks

Tycho at Penny Arcade posted his impressions of ES3: Oblivion as seen at last week's E3. I'll let his own words dash your hopes for an improvement over Morrowind's joke of a combat system:

...This is my exact problem with Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, too. Understand that we're talking about a game whose prisons, homes, and forests might as well be real places, for all their visual fidelity. It's better than you hoped. The stone wall in the first room was so beautiful I thought I would cry, screenshots of the game are absolutely worthless as a means of conveying it. I liked Morrowind, as you might recall - I had a Tiger-Man in there I was quite fond of - but the combat is philosophically identical in Oblivion, which, you know, whatever. I doubt it's a problem for most people. What I'd hoped was for the conflict in Oblivion to make the same kind of leap that Tamriel itself had - more elaborate means of dodging, special tactics, timed attacks, parries, ripostes, etcetera. Richness. It's hardly going to make me leave it on the shelf, but I can see where the experience goes from here and I'd just like to go with it.

Can't say I'm surprised. Fanboys still have another pretty safari simulation to look forward to, I guess. What does this have to do with Fallout 3? If they can't get it right after two sequels, we should just start packing our bags right now.

Spotted @ Penny Arcade

Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:41 pm

Why fix it if it ain't broken? Lot of people like that POS system.

Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 7:17 pm

Tycho who?

Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 7:30 pm

They didn't play it. Combat in Morrowind had no variety and no strategy -- you just clicked as fast as you could. You COULD choose different attacks (slash, chop, or thrust) by pressing a directional key while you attacked, but that was pointless because there was always a "best" attack, and a checkbox in the options to always use that best attack.

In Oblivion, there are many attacks. You have standard attacks, where you click the attack button, and power attacks, where you hold the attack button. Power attacks do more damage, but take longer to perform and burn more fatigue. If you press a directional button while doing a power attack, you can select different power attacks. And you earn more attacks (plus perks like a chance to knockdown or disarm) as your skills get better. But the control scheme stays the same, so you don't have to do Soul Calibur like button combos to access them.

There are also more animations for the standard attacks, and you can string them together by pressing attack again while your character is following through after a strike. Plus, the animations are always appropriate for the type of weapon. No more thrust attack with a hammer, for example.

Blocking is now active -- you hold a button to block. And you can block with your weapon or even your hands (although neither is as effective as blocking with a shield). If you block a strike, your opponent's weapon may recoil, giving you an opportunity to attack.

You can also cast spells at any time. In Morrowind you had to "ready magic", which meant unequipping your weapon and raising your hands into the "casting position". In Oblivion you just press the casting button.

It all makes combat much more dynamic and adds a strategic element that simply wasn't there in Morrowind.

While you, the player, still control combat -- i.e. how you move around, whom you are targeting, when you attack, block & cast -- your level of success is still dependent upon your character's stats, as well as those of your opponent. It's a balance between player skills and character stats. It's more twitch than a pure turn-based game, but it's nowhere near as twitch as a first person shooter or fighting game.

The goal is to make combat more exciting, more involving, and have more depth than Morrowind's. I guess they didn't get that from the demo.

Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 7:44 pm

sounds alright, but aren't you hired to please the fallout fans? icon_chew

Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 7:50 pm

Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 8:03 pm

Sometimes the truth is pleasing, Oblivion is going to be a great game.

Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 8:27 pm

Well I think the combat will be significantly different from Morrowind. I'm also certain that Oblivion will pick up as many awards as Morrowind, and the commercial sites and magazines will give it their 99% ratings and so on.

I also think that FO3's combat will be significantly different from Morrowind's and Oblivions. I'm also certain that FO3 will get plenty accolades from those same commercial sites. It will most likely be as good a game as oblivion is, if not better.

Whether it feels 'Fallout' or not is what worries me, and what remains to be seen. 'Fallout' is, but not limited to, the unique, quirky combat, the massive character of the game world, the viewpoint (in some respects), and so on.

What gives me hope (and I could list what DOESN'T give me hope but that's been done plenty times before) is that Bethsoft appear to be prepared to spend money on their games, and that they also seem to care about how the 'hardcore' (ie us) react, not just the magazine reviews, which are sure to be great, whether people like MSFD read here or not.

Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 8:52 pm

Brown tongue and nose!!

Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 9:04 pm

Well I did say commercial sites and reviews, which are generally meaningless. That was kind of the point. And 'as good as oblivion' can be read in many ways... I guess I'm just diplomatic on FO3. I do think it will be a good game, I am not as sure whether it will be 'fallout'.

Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 9:11 pm

You know sauron just cause someone says something nice does not mean thatr they are kissing ass like you little orc minions do, I agree with the teetotaller, oblivion should rock, and if it is better than expected i'll need a new pc (NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
oooooooooooooooooooooo
oooo........................)(I just got one)

Just to the guys at bethesda, PLEASE i beg of you don't put the morrowind type conversation system in fallout 3 that is the only thing that i did not like about morrowind(that and those damn bird things) Oh and the water does FREAKY things with ati's new drivers. Oh about the conversation morrowind effectively has 1 character, he looks different every time you meet him or her, but there is only 1 brain, it might be collective but it is still the same one, that is why i play icewind dale 2 instead and that has about 3 minutes of conversation in the whole game.

Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 11:50 pm

Thank you mega.

Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 4:51 am

I still have Daggerfall installed and playing with dosbox...
I make damn sure I cast Mark as soon as I enter anything and then Recall to get out!

Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 5:21 am

Just as long as Fallout 3 is turn-based and isometric and that the guys at Bethsoft learn a lot of lessons about great turn-based combat from Troika's the Temple of Elemntal Evil, I'll likely be happy with the combat system in FO3 at least¹.

Hopefully as long as they keep the very simple formula "(Oblivion != Fallout 3) in anyway shape or form" in mind, they should be right. Or at least, God I hope so.

Combat in Oblivion sounds betterer though. Given the type of game it is and short of making it a fully-fledged FPS or "player skills based" combat vs "character skills based", there's an aspect of it that will always boil down to whack-a-mole. It sounds like they've gone at least some way to make it slightly more interesting this time though.

¹The right is reserved for me to complain when I actually see it though and if I think they fucked something up - or even if I think they didn't. I guess I just like to complain.

Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 8:09 am

I don't give a shit about the graphics.
I don't want a game that tears my machine apart!

I want a good story, lots of choices, weapons, NPC's and monsters.

Then I'm set.

The fighting system works fine, you can skullbash with the best attack if you want, but you can also do a little strategic fighting, and try spending less fatigue on almost sure hits (Stabbing...), for low damage.

I don't mind that they don't change this.

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:29 am

This is my exact problem with most modern FPS games incidentally. State of the art graphics. Fucking overly simplified quake/doom/unreal swell guy 10 year old gameplay.

This is why Operation Flashpoint 2 is the only FPS I'm even remotely looking forward to playing.

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:53 am

The gameplay of Quake, Doom, and Unreal is way the fuck more complex and FUN than Elder Scrolls.